marine velvet / ich and UV

[wozza]

well i have a royal gamma with small white spots on its fins and head, im not sure if its ich or velvet, but what ever one its, would getting a UV unit get rid of it?
i know it wont get rid of the spots on the fish, i have to wate for them to drop off and be in its free floating stage but would the UV eventually get rid of it all?

chees james

[leebca]

Unfortunately not. Not all of the free swimming infecting organisms will pass through the UV. Some come off the fish and go into the substrate then infect the fish without going through the UV.

About the only advantage a UV has when it comes to obligate parasites is that the proper use of a properly sized UV will keep the numbers of the disease from 'blooming' to huge numbers. It won't kill them all for the above reasons.

[wozza]

ok i think i remember reading a post from you saying, if i remove all my fish from my display tank in to a QT tank treat them there, and leave them in there for 8 weeks all the parasites in the display tank will die due to lack of a sutible host. is this correct??
cheers james

[WillieM96]

I've heard the same thing. One thing to consider is that fish usually become susceptible to ich due to stress. I had a royal gramma who showed signs of ich for months and then I decided I would treat him, even though his only symptom was a few spots here and there. I moved him to a qt and he died within 4 days. The spots just overran him when he was moved, so I guess the stress was too much for him. You might be better off treating the stressing factor (overcrowding, water chemistry, etc).

[leebca]

Hi James,

You read correctly: Obligate fish parasites can't live without a fish host. So if the host (fishes) are removed from the display aquarium, the parasite will eventually die off, leaving the display tank disease/parasite-free. But the amount of time to leave the display tank fallow is dependent upon which of the obligate parasites you're dealing with.

If I check your first post, you have not yet diagnosed what parasite/disease you're dealing with, so I can't say how much time to allow the tank to go fallow to make sure that that parasite dies.

[wozza]

say ich takes 6 weeks to die and velvet takes 8 weeks to die, ide just leave it for 8 weeks to be sure both are dead, im sure its one of the two, so ide leave it for 8 weeks, does that sound ok to you?
the time peridos were just for example i dont know how long they do actually take, can you advise me on this??
cheers james

[leebca]

I appreciate your question and I will provide the answer, only I'm still concerned that you haven't diagnosed the problem yet.

If it was Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) then the proper fallow time would be 8 weeks. It has been found that the cyst portion of this organism's life cycle can live up to 6 weeks. You need to a dd two more weeks to that possibility to render the free swimming Theronts the chance to die.

If the condition is from Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) then the minimum time to leave the tank fallow is 10 weeks.

It would still be optimum to be sure of your diagnosis. There are conditions that resemble both the symptoms and signs of Marine Ich and Marine Velvet.

Good luck!

[wozza]

Thanks for the reply much appreciated.
From when I had white spot in one of my F/W tanks I would say that it looks the same.
So based purely on looks I would say it is white spot, but im not seeing any flicking against rocks and or rapid gill movement.
So that’s were im confused.
But anyways I have set up a 14gal QT tank today and took one of the already mature sponge filters from my main tank and placed it in the QT tank along with all the fish.
I have got a copper based treatment called “ParaCure”
I quote from the bottle “non-chelated copper (Cu2+) treatment for the most common marine fish parasites.”
It says to keep a “therapeutic level” of copper @ 0.3ppm for 10 days.
Does this sound correct to you?

Cheers james

[leebca]

If you can see salt-sized white specks on the fish, then the probability is Marine Ich.

Other considerations. . .If it was Marine Velvet the fish would probably be breathing hard and dead by now.

The flashing (scratching) isn't a must for this infection, but it usually is part of the symptoms since Marine Ich attacks the gills first. Even if the fish doesn't flash, it may just 'dash' now and then, or 'wag' its head now and then.

That copper medication form, that is, cationic copper (Cu2+) is one of the most unsafe (to fishes) copper medications to use for saltwater fishes. Please take some time and read this:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

The above post will explain that there are basically three kinds of copper medications available to treat for this disease: Cationic copper (Cu2+), chelated copper, and organically complexed copper. The first, cationic copper, is hard to control in salt water, and very poisonous to the fish (especially to marine angelfish, some Butterflyfishes, all scaleless fishes, and tangs); the second, chelated copper, is easier to control, safer to more marine fish but still harms/kills some marine fishes (like dwarf angelfishes, scaleless fishes (e.g., sharks)); the third, organically complexed copper, is easier to control, has a wide effective range (meaning you don't have to be fanatical about keeping the concentration 'just so'). is the safest copper medication, and can be used even on sharks, dwarf angels, and other fishes that can't tolerate any other common copper treatment.

For cationic copper like in ParaCure, that level for that amount of time would be proper. Though I would prefer to see a 14-day treatment period. If you make a mistake and go over that concentration, the fish will be harmed or killed. Go under that concentration and you won't kill the parasite. This copper medication should not be used for tangs or angelfishes (full sized or dwarfs), and some Butterflyfishes. It's very tricky to use this kind of medication in saltwater, since the copper will react with the carbonates in the saltwater itself and come out of solution. I urge you (and others thinking about using copper to treat a marine fish) to read the above post.

Hang in there.

[wozza]

Nice one leebca,
i will get my self a copper test kit tomarrow and start the treatment.
ill keep you updated on how it all turns out.
cheers james

[markx27]

Just wondering once ICH and Marine Velvet are gone from my tank after all are cured, will they re-emerge from current fishes if they get stressed?

Or is it when introducing new fishes and not quarantine properly is the only time MI and MV will come back?

[Semibfy]

As far as i know, can not eradicate pathogens for good unless nuke the tank. Then tank can not support life.
It's matter of controlling by safe practices such as Q/T for new arrivals and maintaining top notch water conditions. Constant harrassment by tankmates can also stree the fish, no different from us, unfortunately.!!!

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND MARK!

Marine Ich and Marine Velvet parasites are known as 'obligate parasites.' They can't live without a host.

Once the marine aquarium system has gone fishless for the correct amount of time, those parasites are absolutely gone/dead/killed and no longer in the system.

Fish that are free of these pathogens being put into that marine system will not EVER show the disease. No parasites = no disease.

After the system is free of these parasites, the hobbyist must see to it that all new additions (fish, invertebrates, water from outside sources, etc.) to the system do not carry or bring with them, any of those parasites. A parasite-free system is attainable, but it takes patience, diligence, knowledge (of the enemy ) and a desire to do what it takes.

Armed with the above knowledge, the answers to your questions are:

A stressed fish shows these parasites only when the parasites are present (but since they are obligate parasites, they infect healthy fishes, too).

and. . .

Yes. Once the marine system is parasite-free one way to contaminate it with these parasites is to put fish into it that bring the parasite with it. A properly performed quarantine process with the same ingredients from the hobbyist (patience, diligence, knowledge, and desire) will prevent the parasite from getting into the display system. BUT keep in mind that putting in any water containing these parasites will possibly infect that parasite-free system too. This includes water from adding clean up crew, live rock, snails, invertebrates, other marine life forms, and (infested) water from other sources. Thus quarantine isn't just for the fish.

To arm yourself with more knowledge, read through this thread and especially the first post:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

[markx27]

I currently hav a Tomato clownfish and 4 chromis in quarantine tank. I have started Cupramine treatment to rid of what looks like ICH or marine velvet im not sure, it has been 2 weeks since I started this treatment, at first all ICH fell off and was unnoticeable, about 5 days later few spots have comeback. Is this normal?

Im willing to do a Cupramine treatment as long as needed, even if it has to be for 8weeks. Im new to saltwater and would really like these parasites GONE!!!

By keeping copper levels at 0.5, for 8 weeks with using cupramine will it have no ill effects in the long run for my fishes?

All seem to be eating just fine, noticed that tomato clown shakes its head occasionally, flashes and darts every now and again. 1 of chromis has 1 of their fins tucked against its body and breathing fast, the only fish showing signs of spots is the clown.

By doing what i have stated, will this cure my fish after treatment?

[leebca]

Some of your comments and questions indicate you really want to do some reading up on these parasites. This is one place to begin: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
and
Marine Velvet - Myths and Facts

The Cupramine treatment should require no more than 2 weeks, after the desired copper level is achieved. If the copper lowers into the ineffective concentration area, it doesn't count and the treatment of 2 weeks starts over again. Hence the need to be sure the concentration of copper from the Cupramine is properly measured and maintained.

You didn't mention, but be sure to use a Salifert Copper Test Kit or a Seachem Copper Test Kit. (I prefer the former). The kit needs to be current, that is not having expired or passed it expiry date.

An 8 week treatment will harm the fish in a chronic sort of way. It will shorten their lifespan. Remember that copper is a poison and even though in low concentrations (high enough to kill the parasites), it has a chronic ill effect on marine fishes. Treat only when necessary and follow the medication directions. More is NOT better.

Some fish will react to the poison with symptoms like the 'shaking' or 'wagging' of their heads, flashing the gill area, etc. since copper harms the gills first.

After treatment you hold the fish in quarantine at least another 4 weeks (without copper) to verify they have been cured.

Good luck!