[CRJDriver]

The chromis seem to be fine with no spots but it looks like i'll setup a QT anyway. As far as the QT tank goes, I'll read the articles again but I'm basically going to set up a 10 gal with no bed and a few PVC pieces in it. I might as well cycle the tank with the chromis rather than buying all the chemicals. Is this going to hinder the curing process? If my understanding is correct to setup a QT/hospital tank quickly you use chemicals correct and just watch the parameters?
Next question...do the snail and crabs need to come out to or are they ok in the diplay tank while it runs fishless? I have probably too many snails to find as the two original ones that i got have seemed to muliply!

For future reference, any other prevention methods that might help another Ich outbreak?

As far as money spent/lost, well after about 10 minutes of calculating...
Medication - $45
Fish loss - about 160 for this episode

[leebca]

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.

I'll help with any questions you might have regarding the QT.

Only fish need to be removed. All corals, invertebrates (snails, crabs, etc.) can be left in the display tank. Obligate parasites of fish are not able to infect non-fish livestock, although non-fish livestock can 'carry' the parasite, they cannot 'feed' it, so in time the parasites will die without fish.

The QT biological filter is slow to begin from scratch but worth starting. Put in a sponge filter. This will be your biological filter. Nothing more is needed. Normally that sponge filter would be in your display system (e.g., in the sump) while it isn't being used or needed in the QT, so that the bacteria would be established in/on it. Start with the water from your display tank for the first QT water. (This way, your fish don't have to be 'acclimated' and you'll be getting some bacteria to start up the sponge biological filter). After that you'll use freshly made saltwater.

Chromis are not too sensitive to small levels of ammonia and nitrites. When the fish get into the QT then watch water closely and control it by water changes. Siphon off all uneaten foods. Don't let detritus build up. Watch pH closely and be prepared to raise it when needed to keep it steady and in range. Eventually the sponge filter will begin its biological nitrification processes.

As far as prevention. . .The best prevention is to not let the parasite into your aquarium. Quarantine all new fishes to verify they do not have any parasites, infections, illnesses, or disorders. I like to perform a freshwater dip on fishes going into the QT, which you might want to consider in the future. The dip does not get around the QT process, it just improves the fish's chances of a good acclimation. See: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes

Here's the article on quarantine again: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

[CRJDriver]

Well i finally got a QT tank. Its a 20gal tank, (longer version, so its longer than it is deep), I also got a powerfilter, heater and an air pump w/some airstones, some PVC pipe fittings. I'm a little confused as how to start this whole thing. From my understanding, I take display tank water and fill the QT tank, then put the fish in. I put the sponge from the powerfilter in my sump, but i'm planning on filling the QT tank tomorrow so it will have only been in there for about a day. I pretty much followed the info from this link, http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyu...uarantine.html since it seemed easier to follow and had steps to follow. I also picked up some Amquel (spelling?) as it mentioned, does this stuff basically help keep the parameters within limits? Speaking of parameter, what level of salinity should i have in the QT tank, I still don't have a refractometer?

Once this whole process is done from my understanding i dump the QT out, clean it up and put it away, is this correct? From then on when I need to set it up I take a sponge filter from the display tank (which i'll put in there) and then i need not worry about cycling the tank since i'll have a mature sponge filter?

[leebca]

[I've moved these posts to a new thread, since the subject seems to be more of quarantine than of your Naso Tang.]
I appreciate the knowledge, experience, and time that Chuck has put into this hobby. However, I disagree on a few points that are found in his quarantine process. Just to point out a few: The reason for a quarantine process. He lists one of about 5 or 6 definite reasons why fish (and all livestock) should be quarantined. He advocates the use of chemicals to bind and control ammonia wastes -- which I think should be avoided by the novice and less experienced hobbyist. There is just too great of a chance of it interacting with chemical medications or adversely affecting fishes. The recommendations given for tank size is not what I would recommend. The recommendation to use an ammonia Alert is also something I don’t recommend. The ammonia Alert disk gives readings that are not low enough for sensitive fish, in my experience. I have tested them last year (purchasing more than 24 from different sources).

So, you ask questions about that particular process when I have personally followed a process similar to the one in this article, for more than 25 years:http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

If you want to know the process I follow, I've posted it here: A Fish Quarantine Process

The starting off phase is described in the above article, but maybe not as clearly as you might like. The sponge filter is kept in the main display tank system (e.g., in the sump) and running to establish the nitrification bacteria to perform the duties of the biological filter in the QT. Since you don’t have such an established biological filter for the QT, you will be faced with having to control ammonia and nitrites levels by performing water changes and/or using chemicals that don’t just tie up the poisons, but remove them from the water (e.g., Algone). But when it comes to treatment, most absorbents will need to be discontinued.

In your situation: After all equipment is assembled. Put display tank water in the QT and start the QT system. (Continue to make as much fresh saltwater as you can for water changes). Put in the biological filter (in this case yours won’t be established yet). Pick up the process in my above referenced post.

I would use a standard salinity (whatever your display tank is kept at). I would lower the salinity for some treatments, depending upon the condition and needs of the fish.

If a treatment is necessary, treat the fish. AFTER the treatment, hold the fish in the QT for an additional 6 weeks to verify the treatment was a success, and there are no other diseases, conditions, or parasites present.

You are absolutely right: If you choose to tear down the QT after use, you then can set it up again when needed, and kick it off with an active biological filter by placing the sponge from the display system into the QT.

I hope this has helped.

[CRJDriver]

Can I put bio-balls from the display tank into the little powerfilter? Will that be the same as an established sponge?

[leebca]

That might work, although they usually have water trickling through them, rather than being submerged. Depends on the bacterial count -- if there are enough bacteria present. I've always been a bit leery of bio-balls. My success with them has been mixed. Give it a try but still test water to verify it is working.

[CRJDriver]

How the hell do I get three chromis out of 75gal tank with lots of rock? I'm not going to have to take out the rock am i? Anyone have any tricks?

[leebca]

Not easy. Especially the agile Chromis. You might get some ideas here:
How to Catch Fish -or- Goin' Fisin'

For a medium to large display tank, removing rock from one side of it then herding the fish to the bare side and cutting off their return to the rocky side with a divider, is one way to go.

[CRJDriver]

Well fish have been captured, and put in the QT tank. I'd say the QT tank is about 85-90% displany tank water. They are pretty spooked, but understandable. I'm sure it would have been hilarious to watch me fetch them. Do I treat them with copper as you mentioned, or just leave them, they seemed to be doing fine with no white spots in the display tank. Now that I mentioned the display tank, besides letting it sit fishless for 8 weeks, do I have to do anything else, ie. put food in it once a every other day to keep its cycle going, or is it just fine sitting there?

[leebca]

Good job!

Yes. I would add food to your display tank every other day, unless you will be feeding invertebrates (crabs, snails, etc.) and/or corals. If you wouldn't be adding any products into the display without fish being there, then add food to the display tank.

I'd recommend about 0.5 gram of frozen food for every 20 gallons, every other day. I don't remember the size of your aquarium. Before the fish go back in, remove any and all detritus.

If you were sure the tank had disease, the best thing to do is treat the fish for that disease. You see, they can have the disease and be hiding it from you. No need to go through this again, right? Treat the Chromis. Since they 'look okay' you can take some time and get the things you need for the copper treatment. But don't let too much time go by.

Keep a watch for contaminating the display tank with QT water. Use separate equipment (nets, eye dropper, etc.) for the QT during this process. Don't let even a tiny drop of QT water go back into the display tank.

It seems like you're on your way. Good luck!

[CRJDriver]

You lead me to my next question, do I have to get all new nets as i used both of the ones i had to coral the chromis. I remember reading somewhere that if you let them dry they should be fine. Is your concern the water that would drip from the nets? You also answered my other question, do i need to feed the crabs? From what you said i'll put a little mysis shrimp in there for them every other day.

[leebca]

Yes. The concern is the water mixing from the QT to the display. You're pretty sharp!

New equipment isn't usually needed. You can use the nets for instance that you were using for the display tank, in the QT. Only, once you use them in the QT, you can't use those nets for the display tank until the nets are rid of any disease organism. Taking a net as an example. . .You would use the net for the QT, never using it for the display, so long as your fish are in the QT. When the fish are done in the QT and you are finished using the net in the QT, then you want to rinse the net in RO/DI or distilled water and let it thoroughly dry out (more than 48 hours). Once bone dry, the net can now be used for the display tank.

Keep in mind another thing. . .Once the fish are cured and healthy in the QT, the sponge filter goes back into your sump. That is because the sponge filter should be disease free at that point in time. If you have any reservations about that being the case, you can throw it away and buy a new sponge filter to run in the display tank for the next time you need the QT. The sponge filters are not that expensive.

Feeding the crabs and other non-fish livestock in the display would keep the bacteria going nicely. Make sure to 'overfeed' a bit during this time.

[CRJDriver]

How do I know if the display tanks cycle is still going? Will I be able to tell from the test readings?

[leebca]

Testing is good. You might try to add a little extra food and 'let it go to waste' (i.e., rot). If the cycle is up to snuff, you won't see any ammonia or nitrite in your testing.

[CRJDriver]

I need a quick identification. In the main display tank there are lots of what appear to be really small snowflakes. They have a small white dot in the center and what appears to be legs all around it. They don't move, at least as far as i can tell.

[leebca]

I'm afraid, too vague for me to know that answer. Nature doesn't usually put legs on creatures that don't move. Might what you see are hairs, rather than legs?

What are the size of these? Are they evenly distributed in the aquarium or located in any particular area? When did they first appear? Remind me again. . .You have live rock, right? How long ago did the aquarium cycle? How old is the aquarium?

It's not uncommon to have a variety of live rock organisms expanding their population as the tank matures and the conditions become favorable to them. One more or less common organism is a tiny shelled crustacean about the size of 1mm. It sticks all over the surfaces. Most noticeable on the walls of the aquarium. If you scrape them off (they come off easily) they float around a bit and may even settle back onto the aquarium walls where they re-attach themselves. These kinds of organisms are not harmful to fish and mobile invertebrates, I know. I believe they live fairly well off the organics and elements in the water. What you see might be one of their kind?

[wozza]

Keep in mind another thing. . .Once the fish are cured and healthy in the QT, the sponge filter goes back into your sump. That is because the sponge filter should be disease free at that point in time.

If you have used copper treatment wouldnt the sponge filter have adsorbed some copper with the possible risk of leaching it back in to the display tank? cheers james

[leebca]

I'm assuming a FOWLR system.

If you're completing the quarantine process/procedure 'properly' then the sponge filter is 'clean.' See: A Fish Quarantine Process

During quarantine, the fish (if necessary) are cured (with medications and/or treatments).

After the cure, the medication is removed from the system. The fish are kept in quarantine a few more weeks (usually 4) to verify that the cure was effective. During this last observation time after treatment, the sponge will leach out almost all if not all of its remaining medication(s) and in the end is: disease free (because the fish are); and medication free.

Sponge filters are inexpensive. Between you and I, I throw mine away. But I know it isn't necessary IF the quarantine process, procedure concludes with the proper observation time.

I have a FOWLR system, so I'm not concerned about sensitive invertebrates. If you have invertebrates in your system that you believe would be sensitive to even very low levels (parts per billion) of copper, then don't reuse the sponge filter or any quarantine equipment on the display tank, after a copper treatment.

[wozza]

ok thanks.
i have a few inverts in my display and i am useing a sponge filter in a qt tank that is being treated with copper atm, i think ill bin it after the fish have been cured its getting pretty shabby anyhow! cheers for the help james

[CRJDriver]

Originally Posted by leebca

I'm afraid, too vague for me to know that answer. Nature doesn't usually put legs on creatures that don't move. Might what you see are hairs, rather than legs?

What are the size of these? Are they evenly distributed in the aquarium or located in any particular area? When did they first appear? Remind me again. . .You have live rock, right? How long ago did the aquarium cycle? How old is the aquarium?

It's not uncommon to have a variety of live rock organisms expanding their population as the tank matures and the conditions become favorable to them. One more or less common organism is a tiny shelled crustacean about the size of 1mm. It sticks all over the surfaces. Most noticeable on the walls of the aquarium. If you scrape them off (they come off easily) they float around a bit and may even settle back onto the aquarium walls where they re-attach themselves. These kinds of organisms are not harmful to fish and mobile invertebrates, I know. I believe they live fairly well off the organics and elements in the water. What you see might be one of their kind?

What you described is similiar to what i see. The system has been set up for 10 months, i do have live rock. They first appeared probably about two weeks after i took the fish out to put in the hospital tank. They do scrape off easily, but do seem to reattach themselves back to the wall. They seem to appear where water movement would be high. Probably about 3mm in diameter, with the center being about 1mm. The main tank (where these critter are) has been fishless for about 4 weeks i think. I've been adding food to the main tank to keep the cycle going, the last readings showed no ammonia, or nitrite, did have about nitrate reading of about 15 however. The chromis are doing fine in the hospitol tank.