Need help with ID, cure and Hypo

[bguile]

Please see the below pics...

This is my Scopas Tang in a QT that has been setup since 6/22. The current parameters are as follows: temp 78.4F, pH ~8.2, 1.008 salinity. As you can see I've had to QT several fish after witnessing Ich in my main display. In the tank also was a Lamarck's Angel that had developed pop-eye and swim bladder infection. After doing some reading to determine what it was and a treatment, I went off to my LFS and picked up Maracyn (not II) for SW fish. I dosed this for 5 days like instructed. I lost the angel mid way but continued the treatment. About day 3-4 I began noticing the white spots on the Scopas. On the 5th day I noticed that some where open sores. This leads me to several questions:

1. What are these open sores and what caused them?
2. If this is Ich, why isn't the Hypo working seeing that I have a salinity of 1.008 (measured by a refractometer). Also I'm noticing that other fish are "flashing".
3. Is this Maracyn worth anything or is it some witchbrew that just caused me more problems?

Thanks.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the difficulties you're having.

I'd like to take your questions in reverse order which I think may make better sense (at least it does to me ).

3. Is this Maracyn worth anything or is it some witchbrew that just caused me more problems?

Mardel makes four products in this product line. Maracyn One and Maracyn Two are antibiotics for freshwater fishes (primarily). Maracyn One for Saltwater fish and Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish are those same antibiotics with other additives -- the primary additive is an appetite stimulant.

The difference between One and Two is what kind of bacterial infections they treat. Two treats the bacteria that are Gram negative; One treats the bacteria that are Gram positive. (Unless you ask, I'll assume you understand the Gram stain distinction).

The 'good' bacteria in the biological filter are the Gram positive type. The 'bad' bacteria in the infection group are usually (not always) the Gram negative type.

If you used Maracyn One (for fresh or saltwater fish) you are treating your fish for a Gram positive infection, which is not likely the cause. It can be, but the odds are against it, unless you've actually tested the infecting bacteria to see what kind (Gram + or -) is causing the infection.

Both Maracyn antibiotics are particularly useful for systemic infections as well as surface infections. This medication actually goes inside the fish, so even though the medication is added to the water, it can cure an internal infection.

If the infection is advanced or very noticeable, the recommended dosage of each antibiotic is double that which is recommended on the medication packaging. HOWEVER, in the case where a hyposalinity treatment is being performed at the same time as administering antibiotics (like Maracyn One and Two), the dosage should be halved. The effects of hyposalinity on antibiotic treatments can be magnified and although the two can be performed at the same time, it is something to avoid if possible.

Thus, for the above reasons, I think the four Maracyn products are pretty useful to the marine aquarist.

2. If this is Ich, why isn't the Hypo working seeing that I have a salinity of 1.008 (measured by a refractometer). Also I'm noticing that other fish are "flashing".

Hyposalinity treats only one kind of the 'common' group of obligate parasites --- Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). If the diagnosis is wrong, you're probably not treating the condition.

If it was for sure Marine Ich then it isn't impossible to still see signs of Marine Ich (spots on fish) for as long as 2-3 weeks after the hypo treatment began. The aquarist only sees this parasite when it is expanded and 'pregnant' which is at the end of one stage, before it falls off to form a cyst for the next release of infecting, free-swimming parasites. These free-swimming infecting parasites can burrow through the mucous membrane and into the fish, below the surface skin level and remain there while it feeds on the fish, for a few days or a couple of weeks. The usual is a few days, but it can go longer. Thus what you see is what may be those that are taking their time to move on to the next stage.

Hyposalinity only kills this parasite when the parasite is in the cyst stage or when the parasite is in its free-swimming stage. The parasite cannot be seen in either of these stages to the naked human eye.

Another factor sneaks in here. . .The stress factor on the parasite! :eek3: Hyposalinity treatment has been likened to applying a stressor on the parasite. If it is thought of in this way, then there is no absolute guarantee that all parasites die when exposed to the stressor. Some may slip through and die the next time. This is sometimes a reason to see continued spots. Obviously, if the hyposalinity is not held constant in the strong stressor zone, then this will allow some parasites to reinfect. Vigilance and control keeps the stressor of hyposalinity on the parasite.

In general, the rule for a hyposalinity treatment is to continue the treatment for four full weeks after the last signs of the disease are gone. So the countdown begins when no spots are any longer visible.

1. What are these open sores and what caused them?

When Marine Ich attacks, it burrows into the fish (as I wrote above). This is a great opportunity for bacteria and other microbes to cause a secondary condition. A secondary bacterial infection is not uncommon. I've seen these areas to appear like 'smudges' of whitish areas of almost any size (pin points to dime size). In part this might be what you're seeing, but I think there may be a better explanation. . .

In the QT the QT water quality is a challenge to control and maintain. Even more water quality challenges arise during a hyposalinity treatment. Watching ammonia and nitrites daily plus checking pH twice a day during hyposalinity treatment is essential. The fish you have there may be severely stressed with regards to water quality and space. Only tests can tell if there may be water quality stressors, etc. See: Stress (and the Single Marine Fish)

Such stress can lead to MHLLE-type conditions. See: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php

From the above article, you can appreciate there are a number of stressors possibly connected to MHLLE, which could be what you're seeing in some of your fish. MHLLE especially likes tangs; and casts disparity on the nutritional support the fish are getting (see below).
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The continued flashing is cause for concern. Maybe you're dealing with additional problems. Sometimes fish flash from water quality problems. I would tend to believe that IF the fish have been treated since 6/22 in a perfectly controlled hyposalinity, their flashing would be about over.

Another stressor (nutritional stress) comes to mind. Foods, supplements, etc. as well as frequency come into doubt on two concerns: Your fish developed Pop-Eye (often caused by bacteria); and the bacterial infection the fish were treated for. The point being that, if the fish were really nourished properly and frequently, they most likely could have withstood a bacterial infection on their own. If you're not following these guidelines, then a nutrition stressor could also be at work here: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Another stressor might be the bio-load your display tank is trying to maintain. That might be worth investigating further. Better to understock than stock the maximum, and certainly not good to overstock, or stock with fishes that need more swimming space.

I have a concern from what I see in the photos. Are those black smudges on the tang below and in front of the eye? Are they the holes you see? A better, closer picture of that area may help me see those better.

Then there are many unknowns. I don't know the history of the disease outbreak nor any other information relating to the above issues.

All-in-all I have the following concerns which relate to the above discussion:
1) How many gallons and the dimensions of the QT?
2) How is water quality controlled in the QT? Is the pH held constant? How?
3) Type and size of each fish in the QT? in the display?
4) Is the display the 90 gallon tank in your Tank Information link?
5) Feeding: What and how often?

I'm not asking for the answers to the above questions. I just would like you to review those issues. If you want further help, I am happy to try and supply it. The more information you provide the more meaningful will be the discussion.

I hope I've addressed your questions adequately! Ask if you have any further questions or comments.

[bguile]

First off, I would like to thank you for taking the time to give such an in-depth and detailed information. I'll begin by answering a few questions:

1) How many gallons and the dimensions of the QT? 20

2) How is water quality controlled in the QT? I tested for ammonia everyday and did water changes (20-30%) until I no longer got ammonia readings, then changed once a week.

Is the pH held constant? How? As much as I could, I try to keep it around 8.2 using proper pH 8.2 but it has gone as low as 7.9 some nights.

3) Type and size of each fish in the QT? in the display? Currently there is a Hippo Tang aprox 4 in., Scopas 3in, 2 True perc. 3 in each, Fairy Wrasse 3 in, and Or.spot goby 3in. Currently display is fallow.

4) Is the display the 90 gallon tank in your Tank Information link? The tank is a 40G breeder. I'm in the middle of a move and sold the 90G.

5) Feeding: What and how often? I'm feeding Formula One and Mysis. Mostly the former.

I am unaware of the difference between Gram + and -. If you have a link to it that would be great. My troubles began when I started to break down my 90G and sell corals and fish. I knew there would be certain ones I'd keep so I purchased a 40G breeder as an interim so that I could use it as a sump later. I had trouble with Ich previously and thought I had beat it with my last hypo treatment. My display (90G) had gone 2 months without ich so it seemed. Just before I transferred over my corals and fish, I began to notice the ich. The fish have been in QT since my move 6/22.

The darkness under the eyes that you see I think are a result of trying to sharpen and enhance contrast of the picture. In it's place though are what I think is Ich. I wish I could get a closer picture, but as you can imagine he doesn't stay still AND I don't currently have a good macro lens fast enough to catch him. Plus I only have a 9W light over the tank. I'll try though. I knew it would be a challenge to keep the parameters of a QT steady with so many fish, but currently its all I have. To keep watch on the numbers I use a pinpoint pH monitor, refractometer, and ammonia test kits. Any added information that you may have based on my responses is well appreciated. Also any other needed questions I'll be glad to answer. Thanks.

[leebca]

Thanks for the additional information. You're welcome to whatever information/experience I can share.

I think the 'probably' biggest concern is pH. Next is water quality (other than pH). Next is space. Fourth is nutrition. All four are 'off.' Until they return to the fullest and optimum potential, the fish are so stressed they will not likely recover very well or, if they do, they will again slip into dis-ease as long as the stressors remain.

Most likely, the disruption of their 'home' was a big stress factor that initiated a second outbreak of Marine Ich (MI). If MI isn't totally removed from the display tank and all fishes, then it can continue to give the fish a low-level infection until something shifts the fish's ability to keep the infection low-level.

The fish probably had some resistance to the low-level infection and kept it hidden from you. This is not uncommon in the wild, but not too common in the home aquarium where the parasite has a 'captive food source' in caged fishes. For this reason, any upsetment to the stress 'balance' can send the parasite into a bloom of sorts. Such things as disrupting their home, moving, or adding new fish are all it takes to shift the balance and allow the parasite to take advantage of a fish now with low resistance. For more information on a technical perspective of stress you may want to read this post: Stress - A More Technical Discussion

I'll elaborate a bit on pH and space. Most of the others were covered in the previous post. pH is a logarithmic number. That is, pH is a measurement of hydrogen ion concentration. The concentration is given in the power of ten (superscript). The difference between 7.9 and 7.8 for instance is not a small change. It is a large change. Most fishes can only handle a shift of 0.10 pH units over a 24-hour period (per day). Anything more and the fish suffers in trying to internally compensate for the pH shift.

So a pH shift overnight from, say, 8.2 to 7.9 is a disaster from the fish's perspective. Some fish would die from this 'sudden' change in pH. Others are just so stressed that any stored energy (see above referenced technical post on stress) is used up trying to handle the change in pH. If there is no energy reserve or if this stressor uses it up, the fish is pretty much doomed to succomb to a wide variety of ailments. The other stressors kick in and the fish has little or no defense left to deal with the MI, water quality, or nutritional problems.

The fish in the QT you have right now should be in a 40 or preferably 55 gallon QT. Their final display tank should be no less than 180 gallons. Getting a bigger picture regarding space issues and stress from that?

Regarding Gram - and +. You may want to search the web for a description of what they mean. Here is just one site that gives some basic information on this differentiating stain technique: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_staining

The above reference has further links and takes you about as deep as you'd like to go into the subject.

From the information you provided and the explanation of the dark areas on the tang, I don't think any further photos will help here.

If you have any particular questions, don't hesitate to ask. For now, things being what they are you need to:
1) Get a larger QT
2) Perform daily water changes of no less than 50% (NOTE: this doesn't replace the need for 1))
3) Improve nutrition AND start feeding beta glucan immediately
4) Control the pH hourly even throughout the night, and
5) Determine what condition(s) the fish have (e.g., MI, MHLLE, infections, etc.) and treat appropriately.

There is much to do here.

[bguile]

Much to do I agree. However, I think I should clean a few things up on the information I gave you.

The pH 'bouncing' is usually immediately following a water change. Usually after a day or two the pH stabilizes and I'll only have to adjust a few days later. Also, please understand that I take heed to your space recommendations however it's just not something I can do at this time due to space limitations vs. just stubbornly trying to make excuses to justify my purchase. As soon as I am done moving the first thing I'll do is plan for and get a larger QT.

I read the article regarding stress and according to it I'm not seeing any of the obvious signs of stress so if they are stressed by space limitations its well hidden. They all swim about as they normally did and their appetite has certainly not changed, including the Scopas.

Speaking of appetite, I did some reading about beta glucan and found that Formula One does include this ingredient. Are you referring to administering the stand alone supplement?

I will work more to keep the pH constant even after water changes and do those more often. Along with nutrition, these are the points of concern I can control now. What would you suggest as a good nutrition regimen for these fish at this time?

Thanks again. I will await your response.

[leebca]

Hey Bguile! Thanks for posting again.

The pH should be making no move or change at all from a water change. The water going in should have exactly the same pH as the water being exchanged. Even a short term fluctuation is stressful and/or hurtful to the fish. I'm encouraged to see that you'll be looking further into this.

One of the most important things I hope that was emphasized in the two posts on stress:
Stress (and the Single Marine Fish)
and
Stress - A More Technical Discussion
is the that most stress is invisible to the aquarist. Checking under the space stress section you'll note that this stress is the least of all visible to the aquarist. It can, however, be identified by testing the fish's blood.

It's unfortunate that Formula One contains beta glucan. The continual use of beta glucan reduces its effectiveness. When fishes are not fed beta glucan and then suddenly started on a dose, their immune response is heightened. This is a reason to administer it during their time of recovery and illness. But if beta glucan is fed routinely, the fish loses its response to it such that administering it does little good. I put it in some of my prepared foods for emergency use, but my main food formulas (for daily feedings) do not contain any. Is there any indication on the ingredients list as to the quantity of beta glucan in the food?

If the fish are categorized properly, I think: You have two herbivores, one carnivore and three omnivores.

If you take a look at the table attached to the referenced post on feeding, you'll see some fine suggestions as to food choices. The tangs must be offered vegetables daily. This should be a mix up of different dried macro algae (different colors, with the primary feed being green algae), nori, broccoli flowers, etc. Choices like Formula 2 a couple times every 21 meals is good, plus choices with high vegetable content (green flake food once or twice every 21 meals). The omnivores will like this (off and on) and the carnivore will take some, also). The carnivore should be offered whole marine foods as much as possible (whole saltwater mysis, plankton, krill (if too large, chop it up), fresh whole clam, and other suggestions given in the post). These whole sea foods will be eaten by the herbivores, but it doesn't replace providing macro algae daily, in their diet.

Prepackaged foods are convenient, most are good, but usually not complete for long term fish health. Being a part of the fish feedings is a good idea, just not the main food. I'd suggest going forward with adding your own vitamins and fat supplements by soaking a wider variety of (dry and frozen)foods.

Get hold of one medium to large cherry stone clam (living) and open it up (without using heat). Leave the meat attached and inside the shell. Rinse it in distilled or RO/DI water thoroughly, then freeze it for 48 hours. Take it out of the freezer, let it thaw, rinse in distilled or RO/DI water again and put it into the aquarium, meat side up. See if that attracts the carnivore and omnivores. The herbivores would probably have a go at it too. This would be a weekly treat, replacing one of the 21 feedings.

Keep us informed on how things are going. Ask if you have any questions or need further suggestions.

[bguile]

how can I get one of those clams you the talking about? Are they common in grocery stores?

Beta glucan was the last ingredient on the Formula One package so maybe the true amount of the ingredient is minute. I am guessing that I wouldn't be able to find this item in the fish store?!

I did download the document on feeding but have yet to review it. I also did understand that space stress is difficult to observe.I will proceed with setting up better nutrition and look to hear back about where I can find these ingredients.

[leebca]

For the live Cherry Stone Clam you will need to find:
a grocery store with a sizable fresh fish counter, or
a fish/seafood store, or
a large Asian grocery store or
seafood restaurants that offer fresh raw seafood (like a store within the restaurant)

Don't go driving around for it. With today's fuel rates, just call up some in your area and ask if they have/sell live Cherry Stone Clams. If they don't ask them where the nearest store is that you can buy them.

Beta glucan for fish is the same beta glucan that we (humans) use. You can get that at a human health food store. You are specifically looking for a bottle that is marked or has as its ingredient, beta glucan derived from yeast. This is known as and written as: Beta 1,3 glucan.

Some beta glucan information:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...03/feature.htm

I recommend a daily feeding of beta glucan until the fish recovers (or no more than 3 weeks). Beta glucan is fed to the fish at 0.02% of its body weight. (This is about 20mg beta glucan per 100g of fish weight). It doesn't take much. And more doesn't help.

It would be reasonable to be at the end of the ingredients list, since as you can see, very little is needed. But if it has been routinely fed to the fishes then the above additional amount will have no effect. Still, it does no harm at this point and worth the chance it will help (IMHO).

[bguile]

Thanks. I'll see if I can find the clams then.

I am beginning to see more white spots on the two Tangs. However, they dont seem to be as well defined as they were before. They look more like white "blobs". Could this be the last of the Marine Ich coming to the skin surface looking to move to the next stage? Is this what Ich looks like when being treated by hyposalinity?

The Scopas' open wounds seem to be healing well with the water changes. Only blemishes where the white spots are remain. Also, how long can these fish live in the hyposaline conditions? If this is infact MI then it would be another 4 weeks after the last sightings that I could raise the salinity to normal again and they have already been subjected for almost 2 months now.

[leebca]

Hi!

Assuming you had an outbreak of Marine Ich, then there are several conditions that can follow that infestation. The parasite drills into the fish, through the mucous membrane and into and below the fish's skin. This action, when the parasite leaves the host to continue its next life's stage, leaves the fish open to bacterial and viral and, if the aquarist isn't careful, even fungal infections.

Without a photo, I'm not sure which of the above may be going on. If the white area is a clump on the surface, it may be the viral infection, Lymphocystis.

If the white ares look more like a 'smudge' of slightly whitish area, it could be a secondary bacterial infection.

If it appears fuzzy (raised from the surface of the fish OR like spider-webs on the fish's skin) it may be a fungal infection.

Some studies have been done on the effects of long term low salinity on marine fishes. The facts are that fish live through months of low salinity. The argument is just what affects this has on the fish. Over the period of many months, conditions such as a degradation of internal organs, including brain damage, has been blamed on such a long exposure. I believe that the time needed for eradicating Marine Ich is a time frame to not be cause for worry.

[bguile]

Cool thanks. I'll see about getting a photo of the objects in question.