[leebca]

I've read some really dumb things in my day about keeping tropical fishes. I try tp take it in stride, watching as people learn more and abandon some of their earlier remarks. The printed word is horrible in the sense that you can't get away from it. There is lies. In black and white. For eternity (sometimes). But every now and then something crops up that ticks me off.

I'm glancing through the new issue of FAMA (October, 2006) and an article catches my eye. It's about feeding bettas (freshwater). Never had one of those but I was curious. On a section of that article the author writes about brine shrimp. It's a good history of the 'shrimp.' Anyway, this part really ticked me off:

While these animals do not share natural environments, the shrimp are close enough to natural foods to serve as substitutes. This is verified by the fact that both fry and adult bettas like shrimp nauplii or adult shrimp.

This author is a PhD!

So, without regard for the actual nutritional needs of the fish; without regard for the actual nutiritonal contents of brine shrimp; the conclusion is that if the fish 'likes' it, it must be good. @#$!%^%&**())__)+(*&^%$#@ (I ran out of symbols). I assume by 'liking' the author is equating that if the fish eats it, the fish must like it. I know of no other way of getting the fish to tell the aquarist what it 'likes.'

Should I write to the author/FAMA pointing out that fish eat other fish's fecal matter and thus, by the author's statement, we should be feeding our fish, fish fecal matter?

Will idiots inherit the earth? Ooops! Wrong Forum for that one.

What should I do? Anything? Nothing? What do you think? Take the poll!

P.S. Poll closes day after Labor Day.

[Ninong]

This author is a PhD!

In what?

One author who writies frequently for the hobby literature has a Ph.D. in business but many people seem to think his Ph.D. is in marine biology or some other natural science.

And some people who are prolific posters (poseurs?) to certain reefkeeping bulletin boards claim to have Ph.D.'s in marine science that they don't have.

I have found that the advice given by the regular columnists in some of the popular hobby magazines is so dumbed down as to be practically worthless. For one thing, they cannot "offend" the customers. When was the last time you ever saw a columnist tell someone that what they were doing with their tank was going to lead to disaster?

No, instead we read advice to newcomers that is outrageous. One new hobbyist asked a well known author (who has a M.Sc. degree in biology) which Tridacna clam would be best suited for his 29-gal aquarium. The columnist, who is a professional aquarist with tons of experience with T. gigas in captivity, told the newby that the best possible clam for his 29-gal tank would be T. gigas!

And this columnist knows how fast gigas clams grow. In fact, he had to build a 5500-gal reeftank to house his two gigas clams at work that had outgrown their 330-gal home. Advising someone to stick a gigas clam in a tiny 29-gal tank is irresponsible in my humble opinion.

So, are you going to tell us who it is who thinks brine shrimp are a great nutritional choice?



P.S. -- Check the list of advertisers in the back of the magazine. See if Brine Shrimp Direct or SF Brand are advertisers. If so, don't expect the columnist to trash brine shrimp.

[leebca]

The part of the PhD was just that the person (I'd think) should be intelligent enough not to make such a stupid statement. I'd think someone educated should at least be able to avoid making statements supported by clearly foolish reasoning. His bio indicates he is a retired biology professor from Drake Univ, inventor, and breeder/experimenter of bettas.

Who it is is no secret, anyone can look at the article of which I speak. It is written by Gene A. Lucas, Ph.D.

The "Conclusions" in the article are quite ludicrous. I think FAMA should have considered giving the space away to advertisers -- it would have gone to a lesser waste, IMHO.

Neither BSdirect nor SF/Sally's have ads in this issue. Hikari have two ads. One has a small photo of a frozen baby brine shrimp package. Neither ad mention brine shrimp. The Ocean Nutrition ad is for plant foods. Of the two ads for Omega One, one has freshwater dry foods and the other is frozen foods, including brine shrimp specifically saying it is "for all fresh and saltwater carnivores."

I understand the economics and politics of the matter, but the author neither has to bash nor support brine shrimp. I don't think there was any coercion for the author to say something stupid. The author didn't have to mention brine shrimp is any kind of detail at all, but he devoted a column to it. This author chose to write support for brine shrimp based upon the observation that bettas eat it. That's dumber than dumb!

[BubbaWPB]

In graduate school, we had plenty of lessons and practical exercises reviewing publications to determine if what was being stated was realistic based on the experimental design, the methods of analysis of the data, and if the conclusions had anything to do with the two former issues.

Bottom line: don't believe everything you read - even in a "scientific" journal.

P.S. Didn't Linus Pauling publish some dither about vitamin C and common colds? He certainly wasn't dull-witted, but his vitamin C dither had not been, nor has it since been suppored by research.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by BubbaWPB

Didn't Linus Pauling publish some dither about vitamin C and common colds? He certainly wasn't dull-witted, but his vitamin C dither had not been, nor has it since been suppored by research.

Yes, Linus Pauling advocated daily consumption of massive doses of vitamin C as a prophylactic against things such as the common cold. His views on that were and still are unorthodox, however he did live to be 93. And he's the only person in history to individually receive two Nobel prizes.

And he was the author of my Chem. 101 text book in 1955.

There is no doubt he had some ideas that were not shared by the mainstream. In an entirely different field, he sort of reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright. Both marched to a different drummer.

P.S. -- I take 1g of vitamin C daily in addition to drinking half a glass of orange juice and half a glass of grapefruit juice daily and I think it has helped me. I've been doing that for the past five or six years now. I believe Linus Pauling recommended something like 3g/day. I think the RDA is only 60mg daily.

I take very high doses of antioxidants (including vitamin C) and zinc for macular degeneration. My ophthalmologist put me on this stuff two or three years ago.

So, according to a 10-yr study by the federal government's National Institutes of Health, vitamin C and other antioxidants plus zinc have been proven effective in slowing down the progression of age-related macular degeneration. Maybe Linus Pauling was on to something?

[leebca]

Traveling as much as I do I would annually get two colds and one flu. Every two years I'd also get sinusitis. All these in spite of the fact I took mega-doses of vitamins, including C, and got flu shots.

It's true that slightly alternating the pH of the human system will stress viruses, but the body fights to maintain the pH within its buffer zone.

I finally learned the secret. I learned to remove the stressors that create the susceptibility to these viruses. In the case of traveling, the main stressor is dehydration (without knowing it). I force water (NOT liquids) beyond the drinks I like. Now: 1 cold every two years, and I haven't had the flu nor sinusitis in 3 years.

[WillieM96]

just as a case in point- my mother in law had several betas. All she fed it were brine shrimp and they kept dying. I suggested going to a pellet food (not optimal but much better than what she was feeding it). Since the change in diet, she has had the same beta for 2 years.

[leebca]

Thanks Willie. A fine example, though through a 'hard way.'

Last chance everyone to answer the poll.

Poll closes on Monday!

[leebca]

Last few hours to take part in this poll!

[leebca]

I e-mailed FAMA on this date, the following:

To Whom It May Concern,

I have read FAMA for decades now, and although it isn’t as technical a publication as I sometimes hope/wish it was, there are just some unprofessional, misleading, and foolish opinions that come around now and then that should be criticized, exposed and set straight before novice aquarists actually believe what they read. I guess finding contributors is difficult, but there should at least be some technical criteria applied to the process.

FAMA has been criticized, along with other periodicals, of being biased towards advertiser products. Although saying something negative about an advertiser’s product should not be condoned when the advertiser’s name is specifically used, nothing should prevent a contributor from at least being truthful about the generic product.

I’m writing about the October, 2006 FAMA article, What Should Bettas Eat? by Gene A. Lucas, Ph.D. starting on page 32.

When I look up Dr. Lucas in the Contributors section on page 7, I find that Dr. Lucas is reported to be a retired biologist and has some experience about the subject of bettas. Nothing is mentioned of his ability or expertise on the nutritional requirements of tropical fishes, however. Perhaps this is an area Dr. Lucas should avoid until researched well.

In the article section Why Are Brine Shrimp the Food of Choice for Bettas? Dr. Lucas writes, "While these animals do not share natural environments, the shrimp are close enough to natural foods to serve as substitutes. This is verified by the fact that both fry and adult bettas like shrimp nauplii or adult shrimp." These statements are not sound on several levels.

True, brine shrimp are not found in tropical freshwater. But the issue should be their nutritional value as a betta food. Although containing some nutrients, this food does not contain sufficient nutritional value for captive bettas and most freshwater and marine captive tropical fishes. Dr. Lucas should review the readily available analytical results of brine shrimp studies and note that in some Internet threads, many Bettas fed exclusively on brine shrimp die early; bettas fed a wide and varied diet of foods found in their environment live a longer and healthy captive life.

One could forgive Dr. Lucas’ apparent lack of knowledge in this area, but the second sentence, ". . .verified by the fact that. . .bettas like shrimp. . ." is comical. If the fish eats it, it must be a proper substitute for the fish’s natural foods? Human children would eat large quantities of cake, ice cream, candy, cookies and such if allowed and offered same because they like them. I couldn’t imagine how any learned person could make the leap that because they like it, that those foods would be a proper substitute for a proper diet.

A final cautionary note for Dr. Lucas regarding what a fish "likes." A more professional approach would not to try and say what a fish likes. I’ve seen many of my tropical fish eat another fish’s fecal matter. Does the fish like it? Is it a proper substitute for the fish’s natural diet? As Dr. Lucas points out earlier on in this same article, sometimes the fish just eat what they’re used to being fed. That may be extended to: They eat what is made available.

I would hope that someday FAMA could institute a system whereby proposed/submitted articles are reviewed and approved by professional or at least very experienced peers, before being published. Otherwise, the novice aquarist is actually going to believe these sorts of unfounded opinions. I would not like to see this and other aquarist periodicals provide weak opinion when factual information and technical support for same is readily available. Our hobby has come a long way and one of the most recent advances has been in captive fish nutrition. I would especially hope this kind of relatively new information to come forward even when advertisers might promote less-than-optimal products in the periodical.

Sincerely,

Lee

Please feel free to publish and/or pass along to Dr. Lucas.

[Ninong]

Lee,

I don't believe Dr. Lucas' opinion is due to his "apparent lack of knowledge in this area" as you put in in your email to FAMA. I understand what you are trying to say about the nutritional value of brine shrimp, especially when not gut-loaded, but Dr. Lucas is considered to be the authority on Betta splendens in this country with decades of experience specializing in this one species.

You could look it up. I did when you first opened this thread but I didn't think it important at the time to bring it up since I do appreciate what you are saying.

The only point I'm trying to make is that FAMA did choose someone who is a recognized expert on this species and has been for more than three decades.

[Ninong]

CERTIFICATE OF RECOGNITION AWARDED TO DR. GENE A. LUCAS PHD

For outstanding service to scientific communities worldwide and in appreciation for the dedication, commitment and hard work that has made possible many significant achievements including founder of the International Betta Congress, a long career as a genetical biologist at Drake University, a decorated Eagle Scout and Scout Troop Leader, former United States Marine, past Kiwanis president and contribution to several civil organizations. The City of Richmond is honored to be the host site for the annual International Betta Congress convention and joins the Congress in its tribute to this distinguished scientist and civic leader. Given this twenty-fourth day of June 1999. The Honorable Timothy Kane, Mayor of Richmond, Virginia

Reference

Here is his picture:

Gene A. Lucas, Ph.D.

[leebca]

Thanks guy. I don't always write as clear as I could/should. However, "this area" is the nutritional requirements and that relation to the value of brine shrimp.

He may know a lot about bettas, but diddly about their nutritional needs and how lacking brine shrimp are for them.

[leebca]

As a follow up:

Dr. Lucas wrote a reply to my e-mail in the Freshwater and Marine Aquarium (FAMA) April, 2007. Give it a look if you receive this magazine (not worth buying it just to read the reply, though, IMHO).

He didn't re-print the entire e-mail, just parts.
I am wrong, he is right, according to him.
Unfortunately, rather than keeping it professional, Dr. Lucas took the path of making parts of his reply personal with comments about my personality.

[Tourkid]

I have this mag, i dident read the acticle when i got it, i skip over most of the freshwater stuff (boy i wish theyre were more all salt mags)

but anyways... It really seems like this guy is quite catty. really trying to start a verbal argument. also seems hes really on the defense. maybe hes worried he'll need to study up more on what he writes b4 he writes it.

Id like to see him feed a betta all brine its whole life and see how well it fares. With all the things my fish needs, i cant see wasting a good opurtunity (a feeding) by giving my fish brine. thats a whole meal with nothing achieved.

The last sentence really erks me. Im sure hes clueless how many people you go out of your way to help each day, but he is so insulting.

Id like to challenge him to a brine fest on one of his prized fishes.

[leebca]

When a 'discussion' turns personal and defensive, it's usually a sign of there being no substance to the 'discussion.' Data should count.

I guess maybe I should have been scientific. I could have listed the known nutrients in adult brine shrimp and put that list next to the known nutrient requirements of fish. I think then anyone could and would see the deficiency and 'missing' components and those that are in the wrong ratio.

Interesting how things work themselves.

[vaporize]

can somebody quote the reply?

[leebca]

He turned it into a three page article, vaporize. Not something easily quoted.

[RHINO13]

Hello Lee,

I don't get FAMA, so I haven't read Dr. Lucas's reply.
But I do think it would be worth while to do what this

I guess maybe I should have been scientific. I could have listed the known nutrients in adult brine shrimp and put that list next to the known nutrient requirements of fish. I think then anyone could and would see the deficiency and 'missing' components and those that are in the wrong ratio.

That is unless you feel you are beating a dead horse, and your over it.

P.S. I don't know how or what he might have had to say about your personality from the emailed letter you showed us here. But if it was insulting in anyway, all of us here knows how much you go out of your way to help others

[Old Man Of The Sea]

leebca & Ninong, on both your opening remarks just happen to be correct. As I seen through the years that nothing has changed any in what`re it be the hobbyist or author who just happens to over step their bounds as also any with a PhD. I seen this too often. Also leebca, as for any PhD or author making any outragious statements. For the one thing, the main thing there that is truely missing is that these people not any tanks of their own to speak of. So one has to figure, where is this knowledge they process comes from!

Paul? Excuse me, but I knew the man, may he rest in peace> Years ago when I stilled lived up in NY, I used to write and call the man much for so far back then, good data was hard too come by> As well, it was much before the time that the very first skimmer came out, and I learned sometime ago, that type of skimmer still exist. Also, I was looking for all the info that I might need to perhaps back then, start my first reef tank. For so many back then were failing to manage one for so long.

The same thing goes to all who simply post any opinions simply on basic material on fish species, for one I know possess as if he knows all or most fish and he never had any true success as yet to speak of himself. The funny thing there be is that he pretends to now have his eels twice as longer then he really had them for, for his only been in the hobby for three now and is most the time posting his doing this for many years.

Myself when the time comes for my two SPS tanks (180 & 240) would only like to hear the thoughts from those who had these and not from so many whos opinion is second hand/hearsay>