[vaporize]

I am trying to determine the cause of the dead of my tank raised clowns.

They are currently in quarantine and in 1.010 hyposalinity & copper for ich/velvet prevention, I have had them for 2 weeks.

I was away and when I came back and found out one of the t.r. percula is dying. Attached picture 1, there are small signs of fin torn at the back fin and there's a small area of lesion.

The second clown (attachment 2) is an t.r. ocellaris. It is breathing very rapidly and have a small discolor patch on its tail.

I have taken all the fish out to do a 15 minutes FW dip w/ meth blue, and alos a formalin bath. However from my experience, they do not look like these are the symptoms of brook. They do not swim into current or have skin peel off.

Could you please tell me if this is bacterial infection / fungus type?

Thanks for the help

[leebca]

WELCOME to REEFLAND!

Sorry to hear about the problems you're having.

There are two primary possibilities here. Without further information, I can't separate the two. One is bacterial; one is poison.

By poison I mean to represent a large group of water quality issues. Not only ammonia and nitrites, but also pH, pollution, and a host of other products that have found their way into the aquarium (none of which aquarists or breeders (or normally need to) test).

Both of these can be loosely grouped into a 'stress' category. The bacterial part could be secondary to the poison; or it could be a primary ailment. Of the two, with the photos you provided (thanks ) I would place the highest probability as poison. Even pH fluctuations of as little as 0.2 pH units can send fish into the poison condition I think I see.

I have more questions than answers!

Is this the first brood you've had?
Tell me more about where you got them from? What was that setup like? What water conditions were used to raise them?
Have these fish been exposed to non-tank bred fish? to wild caught fishes? to invertebrates, etc.?
Is that live rock I see in the photos? How long has it been there? Is that the QT or the display tank?

How long were you gone for? If it was some time, was someone caring for the fish while you were gone?
If someone was caring for the fish in your absence: What marine aquarium knowledge or experience do they have? Did that person check water quality at all?
Did the person do anything other than feed the fish? (e.g., water changes, chemical tests, etc.)?

How did you acclimate the fish to their new home? (The process you used).
What is their appetite like? Still eating like they were before?
What foods are being fed? How often?
Do you daily check ammonia, pH, nitrite, specific gravity, and temperature (or constantly monitoring some electronically?)?
Obtain current test results for: ammonia, nitrite, pH, and copper, then share them here.
What source water are you using for water changes? Has that been tested for ammonia, nitrites, phosphates and nitrates? What is its pH?

The low specific gravity is unnecessary. I would slowly raise it to 1.016. During a treatment not requiring hyposalinity (which I think is not called for here), reducing the amount of energy going to osmoregulation by lowering the salinity is a good thing. But, the target for this is 1.016 in terms of specific gravity units. Any lower salinity and the water stability is compromised (i.e. pH fluctuates too easily).

I would for the time being rule out a fungus infection. They are rare and slow to show. Nothing I can see on the fish would lead me there.

Even if bacteria and poison are not the actual cause of what you observe, you are looking for some major, chronic stressor going on.

Things you can do:
Remove any decaying or possibly decaying matter from the QT (live rock, uneaten food, fecal matter, etc.). Keep the tank free of detritus.
Check all water parameters twice a day. Hold water conditions steady and in the correct ranges. Use water changes to control water quality.
All ammonia and nitrite readings must be held to 'none detected' by your test kit (do not use dip sticks for these measurements).
Make no less than daily water changes even if water parameters are okay.
Apply an antibiotic to the water (I would suggest Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes) at double the initial recommended dose.
Have on hand two more antibiotics but don't use them (Maracyn One for Saltwater fishes; and NITROFURAZONE (in the product, Furan-2))
Stop the copper treatment UNLESS you have actually detected Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) in the freshwater dip bath water.
Raise specific gravity to 1.016 sp. gr. units.
Add beta glucan (from a human health food store) to the fish foods.
Make sure you're adding fish vitamins and fat supplements to each feeding.

Even if the main cause of the current problem is poison, the bacteria in the tank will take advantage of the reduced resistance of the fish, and the fish need an antibiotic treatment immediately. I'm not sure what (fish) antibiotics and drugs are available to you, there in Canada.

If you care to answer the above questions, I can perhaps help more. Without more information, the above suggestions would be the way to go.

Good luck!

[vaporize]

Hi leebca,

First of all, I would really want to thank you for spending the time to answer my question in such detail, it's very much appreciated.

Let me give you some backgrounds into the system. I am starting to collect different clownfishs, and I asked a LFS to order specific uncommon clownfish from a reputatable worldclass breeder in FL. So there are alot of times when I get clownfish directly from the shipment (i.e. when the stock arrived on fedex and LFS call me up, they are alway within 24 hrs). I do not put my wild clownfish in the current QT system. After the clowns are in the QT for more than 4 weeks, I will move them into seperated clown tanks (usually a pair of same species & color per 10/20G cycled tank). Hopefully start my breeding project soon.

The t.r. fish will then be going into my 2x35G plumbed QT. The QT has been setup since last December and have been handling the new arrivals pretty well until the current incident. The QT has a crush coral & sugar sand bed on top tank; the bottom tank is seperated by a chamber of LR (no sand), baffles, smaller tank area with crush coral & UGF. The powerhead sucks water from UGF tube back to the top tank.

acclimation procedures:
(1) FW dip in same pH, QT temperature water for 5 minutes with methylene blue. I was told not to bring the fish bags to QT temperature due to the toxicity of ammonia after shipment
(2) Since most are clowns I collect, I use 1 teaspoon to 3-4 gallon of water Formalin dip for 1 hr.
(3) Put them into QT at 1.010 with cupramine tank (0.3 ppm)

Now to answer some of your question:
Current parameters, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitirate 20, calcium 440, alk 1.9 (a bit low and I added some b-ionic), pH 7.9-8.0, temp 81-83F.

> Is this the first brood you've had?
Not the breeder's first I guess

>What water conditions were used to raise them?
No clue

> Have these fish been exposed to non-tank bred fish? to wild caught fishes? to invertebrates, etc.?
- I do not believe so since the breeder's only doing t.r. fish.

>Is that live rock I see in the photos? How long has it been there? Is that the QT or the display tank?
- LR in there since Dec, before it's in coral tank. It is the QT being shown.

> How long were you gone for? If it was some time, was someone caring
> for the fish while you were gone? If someone was caring for the fish in your > absence: What marine aquarium knowledge or experience do they have? Did that person check water quality at all? Did the person do anything other than feed the fish? (e.g., water changes, chemical tests, etc.)?
-- Unfortunately, only feeding is monitored and the person can only see if the fish act wierd or not (white spot, breathing near top of water, lying at bottom). Not very technical and my profession requires constant travel.

> What is their appetite like? Still eating like they were before?
> What foods are being fed? How often?
They were fed on the main diet of NLS growth formula & Ther-A formual with garlic; occasionally also ocean nutrition reef flakes, cyclopleeze. Now that you mention, I wonder if the frozen cyclopleeze can be the curplit. The fish all eat crazy like t.r. fish, they were all jumpin at the food for 2 weeks (since they arrived). Nowadays, the okay looking fish will eat it like crazy still, however when a fish stop eating and show signs of white patches/torn fin, it usually die within 1-2 days max.

------------------
The fish shown in the picture passed away but I don't think I have found the root cause of the problem. I have changed 50% water and raised the salinity. I have also added neomycin antibiotics into the tank. I also noticed the white feces that are signs of internal parasite, however I do not think that is what kills it, since they are fine for 2 weeks; usually internal parasite kill them when they are stressed right after arrival.

Thank you very much again for your time and knowledge, hopefully I can improve my QT system further to avoid future incidents.

[leebca]

I was worried about posting that reply to you. As I 'pushed' the "Send Reply" button I thought, 'All I was asked was a simple question -- bacteria or fungus, and look what I wrote!' You'd be surprised how many people write me and scold me for writing so much! They fall back on, 'I only asked one question" sort of thing. Anyway. . .You are more than welcome to whatever experience and knowledge I have to share.

If I may make some observations and suggestions about the information provided:

Constant reference is make to "tank raised" and "t.r." fishes. By this, is it meant to be "tank bred?" There is an important difference between the two. One assumes that tank bred fishes will be tank raised, but tank raised fishes do not have to be tank bred.

The combination of a copper treatment (or any medication) in the presence of a substrate and live rock is not good, IMHO. There are much better setups for breeders and that is the use of sponge filters in bare bottom tanks. They are great. Sponges do not interfere with medications, do not form a breeding ground of undesirable bacteria and parasites, and do not 'suck up' baby fishes. All breeding setups I'm familiar with use bare bottom tanks. I have only seen one with a substrate, and that was pure silica ("pure" is used intentionally, since many silica sands have carbonate contaminants in them, which are to be avoided in this kind of setup).

I was told not to bring the fish bags to QT temperature due to the toxicity of ammonia after shipment.

I find this statement interesting. I would question the chemistry behind this and ask for the scientific basis for this recommendation to not match the temperature. I (obviously) disagree. I understand/know about ammonia build up and pH changes to water during shipment, but not any problem with matching temperature of bag water to QT water where the fish are destined to reside.

In your particular process/case, I would use the product Amquel or AcclimMAX during the initial acclimation. Match temp., salinity, and pH to QT, then put into the QT. There would be no need for a FW dip nor formalin dip if the fish are tank bred. If the fish are only tank raised, I would do a FW dip then into the QT and wait two or three days to perform a series of formalin dips as prescribed for Brooklynella.

Unless the fish need medical treatment or are recovering from an injury, maintain specific gravity 1.022 to 1.025.

I would investigate the pH and specific gravity and temperature the fish are reared in or (at the least) take a specific gravity of the water that is coming in with the fish. Since you are making a project of this, I think you want to know as much detail as you can get, until you no longer need to buy these fishes.

I understand about traveling and 'substitute' help. Consider 'professional' help or help that will be trained to do more than feed. I travel about 30% of the time, myself. Neighbor feeds and keeps eyes open. Professional visits twice weekly to check up on things and do maintenance AND is on call from the neighbor should anything look out of the ordinary PLUS I watch water parameters wherever I am through the Internet. You might consider some or all of these possibilities. It's challenging and I DO worry a lot!

I asked the eating/appetite question(s) because tuberculosis (Mycobacterium) can be a possible cause. It is usually accompanied by a sharp drop in appetite, listless behavior, and the conditions I see and you have reported. Poorly kept fish are very susceptible to this. It is also very contagious and even dangerous to human beings if it is the 'wrong' species. Until this is eliminated as the cause, keep ungloved hands out of the water.

The suggestions I made (antibiotics) would likely have no affect at stopping this 'evil' microbe.

Do you have access to a laboratory or veterinarian or college that can analyze/identify fish microbes/bacteria? If this is a Mycobacterium infection, you'll want to know about it ASAP. Have them check for this, for sure. About all you can do is immediately remove any fish that looks sick from those that still look healthy. The use of a UV can help on a tank with an infection. Improving nutrition would also help, along with he addition of beta glucan. Containment is about the only control the aquarist has with this bacteria. Some advanced aquarists will euthanasia fish with this condition.

Hope this is of some help.

Good luck!