Hospital Tank Chaos

[dous]

I need some serious help.

I set up a 20g hospital tank for 9 small fish due to slight ich breakout caused by a baby blue tang. It's been set up since Aug 4 using a powerhead and a sponge filter with established sponge from main tank. Altough it was set up since Aug 4, is was not really working until Aug 25 because of the time it took to catch all the fish (2 weeks) and the time it took to lower the SG to 1.009. So my Hypo countdown really just started in Aug 25. I do 2-5g water changes and tests every other day and so far the readings are fine.

The baby blue did not survive the acclimation, although it was acclimated properly into the hospital tank much like all the others. The others were doing fine until 2 days ago. My red firefish goby was found dead wrapped around the powerhead intake. I changed water.. tests were good. This morning my hi-fin babded goby was weak but was feeding brine shrimps. Later that day he died... he seemed pale in color and was reddish underneith. Again i changed 3g water...

I'm afraid my other fish will go next. I have 1 small yellow tang, 2 chromis, 2 false clowns and 1 royal gramma left. I know the chromis, clown and tang looks very healthy and is hardy, but so was my fire goby...

is there anything more I can do? There's no sign of ich for about 2 weeks now... I'm tempted to put them back in the main tank now (slowly raising SG over few days) but the main tank still has until Sept 7 to be 30 days-fallow.

What should I do?

I apologize for the long post but thought I needed to give a history here...

thanks in advance.

[dougc]

A few things come to mind.

Two weeks of hyposalinity is not long enough. A minimum of four weeks of treatment is required to ensure that the parasites are all gone. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they are not there.

I don't know if 30 days will be enough to ensure that the tank is parasite-free. I have always heard that the tank should be left fallow for six weeks.

How are you measuring the SG? If you are using a hydrometer, it could be inaccurate. You don't have to go miuch below 1.009 to stress or kill the fish.

The red belly could be caused by a bacterial infection. Opportunistic bacterial infections can pop up when fish are stressed or weakened. You could try treating with an antibiotic, such as Marycin-2, but I have never personally had much luck with this.

I must say that, although I have tried many times, I have had very little success treating diseased fish. The only thing that has worked is prevention in the form of quarantine. I may not be able to save the quarantined fish, but at least my other fish don't die.

[leebca]

It sounds like you have a water quality issue. It is just a matter of finding out what is going on. You are in a treatment process and, although there is something wrong, to stop it and return the fish to the display would be giving the disease a chance to survive and continue to give current and future inhabitants a problem.

First, if you will, tell me everything you test the water for AND the latest test results AND the test kits and equipment you are using for these tests.

Tell me what your source water is. See: WATER - Source and NSW

Tell me if you check your source water for contaminants.

Tell me how you prepare your new water for the exchange to the hospital tank, please be specific.

Are you sure you diagnosed the disease properly?

Some observations:
Too many fish in the hospital tank. They are space stressed: Stress (and the Single Marine Fish) This can lead to bacterial infections and a great susceptibility to water quality conditions.
You don't mention the size of your display tank. The young (baby) hippo tang needs a display tank of no less than 100g and then, when over 2 inches, transferred to it final home tank of no less than 180 gallons. The proper sized display tank for a Yellow Tang is over 100 gallons. Consider this space requirement before purchasing tangs.
A powerhead is not needed in the hospital tank. I'd say one fish could have been lost through having that equipment. Circulation from the sponge filter is sufficient for the hospital tank (IF it was not overstocked).

Things to do:
Continue the treatment.
Increase water changes (both frequency and volume).
Remove the powerhead.
Obtain Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fishes. Add this to the hospital tank according to the directions that come with the medication.
Provide the additional information I'm requesting at your earliest opportunity.

[Ninong]

Lee,

Does hyposalinity have to be taken into consideration when using antibiotics? In other words, are antibiotics equally tolerated regardless of salinity? And, would treating with antibiotics simultaneously with hyposalinity add any increased risk?

[leebca]

Ninong,

Hyposalinity must be taken into account when using any (including antibiotics) medication. In hyposalinity the effects of medication is usually significantly increased. In some cases, the meds do not function properly at all.

I recommend Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fishes in double the original dose EXCEPT in a hyposalinity situation, where I recommend only a 'normal' dose, since this particular antibiotic doubles its potency in hyposaline solutions.

When used at the recommended dosage in hyposaline water, this antibiotic functions without added risk to the fishes.

[Ninong]

OK, thanks! That's what I thought.

[dougc]

One other thing to keep an eye on: pH. In hyposalinity, the pH can get pretty low. Fish are fairly tolerant of low pH, but it certainly another stressor. I check my pH a couple of times a day when using hyposalinity.

[leebca]

It very much depends on the fish, dougc. Tangs and Angelfishes are very much adversely affected by low pH. Tangs prefer pH on the higher side (8.4).

It isn't so much the pH for fish, but all fish are significantly affected by a sudden change in pH.

[bguile]

Sorry to revive this thread so late, but it fits my question so perfectly? What methods are/should be employed to maintain a proper pH in a Qtank? I have recently setup one using a sponge filter that's been in the display for a few weeks now. The problem in the past and now is that I find my pH bouncing a lot if I don't add something. It seems to want to drift back to 7.9. I have used the B-ionic alkalinity component to help keep it raised around 8.2 but only to find it back around 8-7.9 a few hours later and I worry that b/c I'm using this alk component that I'll eventually have a high alk count and drive other important elements in the wrong direction.

[leebca]

pH control is a combination of factors. The leading factors are: calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium. Your concerns are justified. By adjusting just one factor, you are throwing the water out of balance. For a more clear and technical understanding of the relationship between those factors and the pH you should read:
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Check the pH of your source water. It should start out as neutral. Check the pH of the make-up salt water you are going to use for the QT. It should be 'in the zone.' If these things are wrong, you start correcting things at that level.

In the QT itself, if pH begins to go lower then you need to find out what's likely the cause(s) of that. Some hints on things that cause a lowering of pH in tanks can be found here:
Low pH: Causes and Cures by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
If you discover the cause(s), correct it.

If you are running a hyposalinity treatment in the QT, it isn't unusual for the pH to be hard to control. With little buffering power, the pH is easily altered when the salinity is low. Adjustments regularly to the pH to hold it steady during a hyposalinity treatment is to be expected. Adjust as indicated below.

You can gently raise the pH by small additions of sodium bicarbonate (household, pure, baking soda). But, this isn't a fix for the underlying cause of the pH going low on its own. You need to address the cause and fix it.

[PurePerfection]

you got that fish at petco didnt you...

[bguile]

Nope...I don't mess with Petco or PetSmart like that. For that matter, I don't like purchasing any fish from pet stores that look glum and run down and with so many scratches on the holding tanks, you can barely see through them. I've always found the big chains to be that way. Particularly when it comes to SW fish. They always look neglected and unhealthy. I won't buy from the FW/SW LFS either if they look that way...unless I know a fish just came in a few days ago and it's one I was REALLY looking for.

In keeping with this thread thanks again Leebca for your wealth of information and direction on where to find it. I've read it and will read it several times over for more understanding. I have been able to keep the pH pretty steady the past few nights, beginning with water change and 2 two supplement. I have other concerns that are surfacing, but I'll go back to the subject thread for that.

[PurePerfection]

you think you are smart but you are the one asking Ick questions on ReefLand..

[PurePerfection]

you think you are smart but you are the one asking Ich questions on ReefLand.. For that matter,

[Ninong]

you got that fish at petco didnt you...

you think you are smart but you are the one asking Ick questions on ReefLand..

you think you are smart but you are the one asking Ich questions on ReefLand.. For that matter,

PurePerfection,

What are you talking about, assuming you have any idea what you're talking about?

Either you are confused or you enjoy asking dumb questions. Or both!

bguile asked a question about maintaining proper pH in a quarantine tank. He did NOT ask any questions about ich or say anything about buying any fish at Petco or anyplace else for that matter.

I don't think I would go around criticizing other members if I was so stupid that I was unable to follow the thread.

Pay attention next time and stop posting insulting comments about members asking questions.

[bguile]

Thanks Ninong. I didn't even deem it worth the reply. Obviously someone trying to build their post count to not look like a newbie....I guess.

[PurePerfection]

ya thats it.. sory