Questions

[baobao]

1. Can I use Algone in tank with copper?
2. Is there an antibiotic that can be used with copper?

I've read that Maracyn 2 can be used safely while medicating with copper, but other antibiotics, such as Nitrofurazone, Neomycyn cannot.\

3. What is the best copper to use?

I use cupramine, but constantly have to replenish, and have difficulty measuring using Seachem's test kit. Also, I run skimmer and uv sterilizer while medicating with copper (is this ok?)

[leebca]

Hi guy!

1, Yes. Algone says it is okay. I've used it in quarantine tanks that I treat with Cupramine.

2. Some antibiotics can be used during a copper treatment. Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes is one of them. In general the group of antibiotics that can't be used are the sulfa-based ones.

3. Cupramine. See Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

The Seachem test kit is tricky. You can use the Salifert Copper Test Kit to measure the Copper in the Cupramine. See above reference.

The use of a UV and skimmer is, in part, the reason for you having to continually replenish the copper. Neither is supposed to be used during a Cupramine treatment. The UV destroys the chemical; the skimmer removes the complexed copper.

[baobao]

Will FW dip with Methylene blue alleviate fish suffering from bacterial infection?

[leebca]

No.

[baobao]

New question - How do I know if my fish has flukes? I have Imperator that recently has started having occassional spasms, shakes head, as if trying to shake something off. Not ich because there's no visible dots - maybe velvet (I keep copper, but maybe level fell off?)

[leebca]

Flukes are not always apparent, especially if they infect the gills and not the body/fins. General conditions of the fish give away a fluke infection. They include:
Increased respiration rate (normal average respiration of marine fish is 80/minute)
Change in behavior (listless, hiding, etc.)
Stops eating

Your fish sounds like it is having a reaction to the copper. Is this the third or now more Emperor's you'd tried to maintain? Copper is a poison. It is a medication to use to treat a disease, not to use on a routine basis. Over time (short in some cases) copper will degrade the gill structure, degrade the liver and interrupt normal physiological processes.

I have found that the large angelfishes and some tangs to be particularly sensitive to elevated copper levels. Using copper for more than two or three weeks with these fishes will begin to harm them, in the long run.

An aquarium cannot be continuously operated like a hospital tank.

[baobao]

Emperor Angel often shakes his head,darts about viciously; Is this symptom of copper overdose? Will remove copper promptly.

Also, Lee - I'm looking to get my hands a little dirty (fed up w/ trying to guess illness/problem afflciting my fish);

Any suggestions on microscope?

[leebca]

It doesn't have to be an 'overdose' in the traditional sense. I'm trying to convey that fish cannot handle prolonged exposure to copper at 'normal levels' needed to kill parasites.

It is possible that your fish's gills are being 'burned' by chemicals. These can be medications, copper, ammonia, nitrites, etc. in the water. The irritation turns to major damage with time --- very little time on occasion. I've seen this before, especially at LFSs who keep copper in their system but fail to find a new home for their fish in a month or two. This also happens when water quality goes sour, especially in QTs. Another symptom of this, you've seen, is when the skin of the fish looses it color, the skin looks 'scraped,' then at the extreme, almost looks like it's bleeding

Although it can be symptomatic of flukes, gill infections, etc., I'd say the fish behavior in your case, the chemical cause is most likely.

There are about three 'levels' of microscopes depending upon the depth you'll like to get into and the skills you possess. The low level, which many hobbyists can easily obtain, easy to use, not very expensive and fairly good enough to see Cryptocaryon irritans and some of parasites are the home-amateur scopes. They can magnify with fair resolution up to 400x. A couple such types are: Motic Digiscopes 150 & 300. They are in the $200 or less range.

For work with protozoa you need a more powerful scope with better resolution. You'd want a student microscope that will provide you with 700x to 1000x power, good quality lens' and attachments. Maybe in the $1500. range.

For serious bacteriological work you'd want a 1000x or greater (preferably 1500x +) light microscope of excellent quality resolution, with most of the bells and whistles -- $3000. and up.

Google what is out there. You might find a bargain. With this equipment comes a need for the operator to have a lot of extra time!

If you establish a relationship with a local college, university, aquarium, zoo, etc., this kind of identification and treatments can be performed by professionals for $50 to $100 each analysis. Are they worth it? I think so.

[baobao]

Lee,

A wholesaler advised me to keep specific gravity at 1.016-1.017 (however not less, as this would compromise water quality and endanger fish), and that this would prevent any problems associated with fluke. I hope it's this simple and I can follow this as preventative?

Second, unrelated question - What is your opinion on ozone and how do you advocate its use?

Third, unrelated question - I wanted your opinion on supplemental addition of Beta Glucan 1,3 ( I do crush and add Beta Glucan and vitamins to fish food) to the aquarium itself. Recently, I found some BG 1,3 200 mg/pill (Beta 1 3 Glucans by Vitamin Shoppe - VitaminShoppe.com) - I've started dosing aquarium with 2 pills/100 gallons every other day. Is this a good practice?

[leebca]

It was once believed and recommended that, in order to kill Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) the proper hyposalinity specific gravity would be 1.014 to 1.016. Hyposalinity at this level has little or no affect on flukes. Since the above recommendation was made a few decades ago, it has been found that Marine Ich (MI) is quite able to infect and reproduce in the 1.014 to 1.016 range. It's getting harder and harder to kill MI with hyposalinity. As far as flukes go, the freshwater dip will do the job -- once and for all time. Thus these should never enter the display (with proper dip and quarantine procedures in place).

Ozone is particularly good at making marine water clear. If your question is regarding its value with the control of disease organisms, it has very little affect on that population. What it does do is alter protein molecules such that the skimmer and carbon treatments more readily removes them. Ozone can be used to cover up or band-aid an ORP problem. But if you run a properly mature aquarium, stocked properly, there isn't an ORP problem.

Beta glucan is in fact a stimulant to the marine fish's immune system. However, it only works when first introduced. After constant use, it looses its effectiveness. So using it constantly for more than a couple of weeks, is like not using it at all. I'm sorry to see that some mis-guided food manufacturers now include it in their prepared marine fish foods. It is a shame. Not only do they not understand its value and use, but by putting it in and recommending their food be constantly fed the fish, the beta glucan will have little affect. Beta glucan is best used on a recovering (from injury or disease) marine fish and added to their food. It is most effective ingested rather than absorbed through the skin.

[vaporize]

It was once believed and recommended that, in order to kill Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) the proper hyposalinity specific gravity would be 1.014 to 1.016. Hyposalinity at this level has little or no affect on flukes. Since the above recommendation was made a few decades ago, it has been found that Marine Ich (MI) is quite able to infect and reproduce in the 1.014 to 1.016 range. It's getting harder and harder to kill MI with hyposalinity. As far as flukes go, the freshwater dip will do the job -- once and for all time. Thus these should never enter the display (with proper dip and quarantine procedures in place).

Lee, does flukes stay in water (like Ich / velvet) or it can only have fish-to-fish infections, just wanted to confirm. And can it be killed with standard cupramine treamtent/antibiotics? Thanks

[leebca]

Unfortunately, there isn't a clear answer. Flukes are a very large and varied group of organisms. Some reproduce off the fish; some reproduce on the fish. Some move from fish to fish; some move from fish to environment, go through stages, then re-infect the same or other fishes. Unless you identify the one(s) you're dealing with, there is no sure answer to how they reproduce/infect in the captive marine aquarium.

For those that complete a cycle off the fish, general approach is to allow the tank to go fishless for no less than 10 weeks to rid the tank of them.

Since a freshwater dip is one of two methods to rid the fish of several kinds, the other favored treatment is performed in a quarantine tank. Harsh medications like Clout that contain Trichlorfon (a.k.a. Dylox and more than a dozen other names) have some positive results, although the other poisons in Clout are, IMHO not to be used on marine fish. (Fluke Tabs is one brand).

Most true flukes are not very responsive to copper treatments. None are affected by antibiotics. Antibiotics are often used just after a fluke treatment of fluke-infested captive marine fishes because the flukes, creating 'holes' and breaks in the fish's skin often allow secondary bacterial infections to develop. The antibiotics are for the bacteria, not the flukes.