A carbon sourcing

[Qcks]

I've recently noticed a multitude of threads on other reef forums concerning the use of alcohol/sugar dosing as a means of cutting nitrates and phosphates. I realize this isn't a terribly new idea, but i'm still curious.

A person using sugar/alcohol dosing on a tank is attempting to produce a bacterial bloom by adding a carbon source; The "excess" bacteria can be removed with a protean skimmer, but not every one chooses to do so. in most cases Phosphate drops to inperceptible levels well before nitrates.

has anyone out their tried this? I have a number of reservations about adding sugar to my tank, and even more about adding alcohol. A problem that was specifically cited as a concern on one of the other forums was the dissolved oxygen content of the water, but i had a few more in addition to what was specifically stated. If you have used this method for reducing nitrates and phosphates, did you experience a drop in dissolved oxygen? how much did the level drop? my last question is a bit off: is light required for the bacterial bloom?

i'm honestly curious about this. If the claims hold true, then it would be a very efficient way to reduce phosphate and nitrate levels within a tank; it's been suggested by some of the supporters of this that it's more effective then growing macro algae for the purposes of reducing phosphates. Even if this claim turns out to be true i don't think i'll be removing my chaeto any time soon, but it still an interesting prospect.

anyway...

like i said i'm curious, so please talk some

[leebca]

Sorry no one has contributed to your post. Maybe my response will encourage others.

I have not directly added sugars or alcohol to my systems. I write directly because some additives I've used have contained these as 'secret ingredients' to the best of my knowledge.

What has been written about the effects are somewhat of a moot point to some extent. When sugars and alcohols are added to the water, the bacterial bloom does occur -- but at the expense of other bacteria.

Our marine systems are an evolving miniature ecosystem where populations of bacteria come and go; micro algae populations come and go; where pod populations come and go; etc. These changes settle down as the nutrients available to the organisms and the environment comes closer to being constant That is, eventually one group of organisms dominates when the organisms finds the conditions favorable.

Now, if alcohol and sugars are added to the system, another set of microbes find those conditions more favorable and push out the others. BUT, sugar and alcohol are not the usual by-products of marine livestock we keep in the miniature ecosystems were establish. Thus, the bacteria produced would not be working to handle direct marine livestock wastes.

What all this leads to is the need to understand what bacteria are being pushed aside and a clear knowledge of what is lost vs. the gain. But that is just it -- we don't have a clear understanding yet. In other words, it hasn't been carefully studied yet just what such additions do to the flora of microbes typically resident in the aquarium system.

You point out a possible drop in oxygen and of course that is just one possible effect. This can be used as a good example of what I've trying to make clear above. . . If the oxygen level drops, it doesn't only affect the marine fishes and livestock, it also affects the bacteria responsible for converting ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates. Those organisms need oxygen too. What happens to them? What happens to the bacteria/microbes chewing away at the detritus? What would be the long term affects of inhibiting those microbes in favor of the microbes that will use the alcohol and sugars?

Regarding skimmers: The protein skimmers we use do not remove all kinds of proteins. In fact, the skimmer systems on the market are not good at removing fatty acid proteins. So, not all proteins are or will be removed by the skimmer. That is in part one reason why carbon is still useful. It can't be said that the skimmer will remove the bacterial bloom caused by the addition of alcohol and sugar. Many of those bacteria will attach themselves to surfaces in the system and some will always get by the skimmer and carbon.

Regarding measurements: Our means of measuring at home the phosphate level is pretty poor. To do a proper analysis of the effect(s) of such additions, I would only like to rely on analytical lab data, testing phosphates to parts per billion with a reliability to + or - 1 ppb.

These are my thoughts.

[vaporize]

Let me post that this might not be the correct subforum to discuss this, but I am going to put in my contribution as well :P

The dose of voka into reef system was originated from Europe, where most of their hardcore reefers are into SPS specific system. This is to use gram negative bacteria to reduce nitrate and phosphate as you said. HOWEVER without a very controlled method of dosing such alcohol, it can kill your tank VERY VERY fast. You better have a measurable way to control it.

The bacteria bloom that this cause can create a large number of gram negative bacteria causing deadly disease in fish.

It really depends on your goal of using such method. If you are big time into SPS type of reef tank, I would recommend looking into more safe systems such as Zeovit or Polyplab Reefresh or similiar products. They too use bacteria to control reef nutrients and water quality.

[Reefland]

I have heard of this method to increase bacteria colonies. I however wouldn't try it. I would assume, as mientioned, that the dose must be very controlled, and to me seems like an unatural way to encourage colonies to grow. I have heard of people urinating in an aquarium to help it cycle...I wouldn't do that either.

[vaporize]

I have heard of this method to increase bacteria colonies. I however wouldn't try it. I would assume, as mientioned, that the dose must be very controlled, and to me seems like an unatural way to encourage colonies to grow. I have heard of people urinating in an aquarium to help it cycle...I wouldn't do that either.

urinating is just to increase nitrogen source, that can be safely done with adding a more pure source of nitrogen chemical compounds. Of course the idiot that spoke at MACNA about that have no idea what he was doing (although it was successful) LOL

[Reefland]

Yes, but I still wouldn't do it. ;) And for the same reason, that it seems very unatural, I wouldn't add vodka to my tank either.