[vaporize]

Hi Leebca,

Just wondering what would your recommendations be for acclimating newly wild arrival of clownfish.

Since I am trying to get my hands on clownfish breeding, my LFS friend told me that he can sell a box of them to me at transhipper rate, however the catch is I get whatever that is in the box (death or alive), I will be responsible for acclimating them and they will be coming directly from Indonesia with their normal shipments.

During my research on acclimating wild new arrivals, I come to two basic methods of doing such. Since after ~30 hrs in transport, the water in the bag will be having low pH like 6.5 or so.

Method 1:
- Drop the pH of the holding tank to match the water in the fish bag using CO2, and put all the fish in.

Method 2:
- Slowly drip the holding tank water into the fish bags for a period of 30 minutes to 3 hours depending on the pH.

I was also told that I should do this in the dark with a torch to reduce stress.

Would you recommend which of these methods or others? The holding tank is cycled and currently have only LR in it.

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

cheers, v

[leebca]

I will share my opinions regarding your question, and you may choose the path you prefer.

With today's long ship-times I believe the most responsible means of acclimation begins as I've outlined in: It Was Acclimation, I know. . . with regarding to opening the container and lighting.

I don't personally favor a process whereby the bag water pH is intentionally altered beyond the acclimation process because of the ammonia hazard. I believe that the best thing to do is destroy the ammonia or make it chemically non-reactive, then follow 'normal' acclimation for fish in bag water for a long time.

After the bags have floated for temperature adjustment, the bag is opened and then:
1. remove dead livestock;
2. measure bag-water quality (ammonia, nitrite, pH, and salinity); and
3. measure/estimate bag water volume (leave water in bag).

Then, I would add a product to 'bind' or 'alter' the ammonia. I would choose either Amquel or AcclimMAX and favor (at this time) AcclimMAX. Follow the product's directions.

Repeat 2. above. Proceed with the acclimation I have recommended in the above reference. The above referenced process would be adjusted to follow the recommendation for fish that have been in shipping bags for a long time. I've use this process after trial and error over the last few decades.

[vaporize]

Thank you Lee for the explaination, I will read the information and try to understand it throughly.

Actually one minor correction, it's actually not alter the pH of the bag water but to alter the new QT's pH to the bag water's pH. However this is usually only done in importer's tanks which are barebottom systems, however with a system with LR, I do not think I can do that on my QT/holding systems due to die offs.

Oh one more question, are there any different procedure if I am acclimating anemone? Or the slowly drip around 3 hrs will work?

[vaporize]

Oh one more question, I forgot if ammonia is more toxic at higher pH or temperature? I am thinking when I should add the Amquel/Prime to detoxic the ammonia

Thanks

[leebca]

I actually did respond correctly -- then edited my response to be off-topic (forgetting your first option).

I originally had, "I would not recommend that anyone adjust the pH in the QT or bag water."

Most important is that I believe you should be performing a quarantine process on these fish in a bare-bottom tank. They need to be treated for Brooklynella and observed for disease, especially if you want to breed them, IMO. Thus, they should be entering a bare bottom QT with an establish/active biological sponge filter(s), with hiding places, after arrival.

At lower pH the ammonia changes its chemical form. It is less toxic. When the pH is raised, it becomes more toxic. That is why I don't recommend adjusting the pH (either bag water or to lower the QT pH). As soon as the pH goes up, the ammonia changes form into the more toxic kind. If, when the ammonia is less toxic (like at lower pH in the bag water) it is complexed, destroyed, altered so that it can't turn into the toxic kind (e.g., the additives), then pH is no more an issue with the ammonia. The pH still remains an issue for the fish however, and that is why the acclimation will need to be longer, with attention to the bag water pH and final destination pH.

I think you can see from the above that lowering the pH in the QT and then slowly raising it will release ammonia and be harmful. Thus, the 'destroy' the ammonia step. Everything else is pretty much the same. If you have any questions or if what has been written is in anyway unclear, just ask!

pH is only one thing in that bag water the fish have to contend with. Thus I've never been in favor of allowing bag water to get into the QT.

The final destination pH (hopefully QT) should be no less than 8.0 IMO so you can 'average' or compromise the QT pH with the bag water pH, but by no more than that.

Follow the directions on the product. I believe it states to add the product when you first open the bag.

I thoroughly believe in the drip method for invertebrates. Most are in excess of 4 hours in time. But, not being an invertebrate 'expert' I'm unsure when that generality should be broken/changed/modified. In the scheme of marine livestock: fish in general are 'medium' acclimation subjects, invertebrates in general are very sensitive acclimation subjects. You might want to ask the anemone question in the Reef Forum.

Good luck!

[vaporize]

Thank you very much Lee, I think it is pretty clear on each and every steps You can definitely count on me picking your brain if I dont know something, always appreciated the details in your answers.

During my research, I did came across an alternative pov on acclimation (that alot of lazy LFS does all the times, i.e. open & dump). This is an article by Aqua Science Research (I believe maker of a few ammonia/chloramine remover products).

ARG - Aquarium Pond Info - Acclimating new fish
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/v...ic.php?t=84883

Basically their view point is:

• low pH in bag is caused by CO2 buildup from the transportation & fish feces (ammonia)
• higher pH or higher pH cause ammonia to be much more toxic
• once open fish bag, CO2 diffuse and O2 get into water can raise pH
• there is no proof of pH shocks
• TDS shock might hit the fish harder than ammonia shock (I guess this might not apply as much as SW TDS will be similiar)

Their recommendation:

1. Open bag, add ammonia detox
2. DO NOT float bag to avoid contamination. As long as the QT water is warmer or same, dump the fish in.

I am not sure how this match up to your experience, but I guess we can relate to some LFS doing that and fish somehow survived better. Just a thought.

[leebca]

I've seen some LFSs float the bag for 20 minutes and dump the fish into their 'for sale' tanks. They are usually in and around Los Angeles. Their point is that they have their store system at the same pH and salinity as the wholesalers. Then they just drove to Los Angeles, bought the fish, drove them back to their store, adjusted the temperature, and dumped.

From monitoring such LFSs (secretly) for about 6 months now, I estimate there is an overall 15% fish loss within the first 5 days. This is about 5% more than 'usual' from proper acclimation procedures, from other LFSs who claim the same conditions, but go through a long and 'normal' acclimation process.

Since fish are inexpensive to the retailer and since there is no shipping involved, the LFS balances how much time and store help is needed to acclimate the fish vs. the cost of loosing say, 5% of the just-bought livestock to an improper acclimation. I'm afraid the answer isn't too good -- they throw the 5% away on top of the usual 10%, totaling 15%, rather than spend time to acclimate. Fish are a commodity to most the system middlemen. The 'float and dump' procedure only takes one person, and very little time. The outer bag is not rinsed/washed off. The fish bag water is poured out through a net and the fish caught (sometimes injured), then dropped into the for-sale tank.

Regarding specific points you listed in the other pov:
1. Partly true.
2. Not chemically accurate. My comments are chemically accurate. But, the results are the same: higher pH turns one form of ammonia into the more toxic form of ammonia.
3. Easily shown to be partially true. Just do real-life measurements. Basically, what is said is partially true, only the effect is much slower than the statement leads one to believe.
4. Totally wrong. (More on this one later).
5. If TDS shock is so important, then how does a freshwater dip work just by adjusting pH and temperature? How can we treat fish with hyposalinity and raise salinity a few ppt at a time without negative affects? Another bit of mis-information.

Regarding the 2. in your post -- contamination of bag exterior to tank water? I believe that. I take that into account in the procedure I use. I remove all outer bags. Regardless of where the bagged fish comes from, I rinse in tap and then rinse with DI water. Little contamination for me to worry about. I'd worry more about the contamination from the bag water!

Regarding more on 4. above. . .What I've seen is, on a water change, a 'normal acting' fish take a nose-dive resulting in anything from death to severe stress. I experimented. I found an exact pH match (with a variance on temperature of up to 2F and specific gravity up to 0.002 units) was not a problem to the fish. If I varied the pH by as little as 0.05 pH units, I could get some fish to take that nose dive.

So I continued the experiment since it could be that the new saltwater could be the issue. What I did was remove 15% of the tank water, changed the pH and put it back into the tank it came from. I could then again, get the sensitive fish to take that nose dive. It's the pH. I'm afraid on that point, the other pov is

In the early 70's I tried many experiments on acclimating marine livestock coming into our store from collectors, exporters, and wholesalers. I tried for several months to improve survival through reducing fish stress by partially anesthetizing them (various veterinarian drugs), and trying out quite a variety of procedures and techniques.

The drug approach improved survival of some species, most notably the Pearlscale Butterflyfish. They are quite often received in an extremely agitated state 'of mind.' Some remain so afraid they never acclimate. The drugs improved their survival by almost a factor of 2. But in general, it didn't help marine fish by any measurable quantity.

There is one thing to say in favor of the pov procedure -- it is short. Like I wrote in the post on acclimation, the process is a balance of trying to get the fish adjusted and yet into the QT as soon as possible.

There are almost as many different acclimation procedures as there are old marine aquarists. As far as procedures used by wholesalers and LFSs, I'd say they basically don't care about the fish and when they sell a fish for $50 that cost them $4. (incl. shipping) they can 'waste' many of them. I can't bring myself to do that.

[vaporize]

Thanks again Lee for sharing your experience and experiments in particular to the ones regarding the pH shock. Reading from the post I am guessing the pH differences is the main point that should be address in the acclimation process, follow by other parameters such as salinity & temperature.

I do agreed with you on the responsible fish keeping and ethnical way of acclimating fish. Afterall they are lives that you bring in from the wild and should be respected.

Lastly, just wondering what would you guess the DOA be around this time of the year from a shipment from Indonesia be? From readin above, the 10% seems to be the norm in trans-ocean shipment?

* One more thing, would adding a drop or two methylene blue into the bag's water do any good in terms of killing bacteria/parasite or claming fish down (I read that Jungle's bag buddies tablet used to for transport fish use methylene blue as main ingredients).

[leebca]

I think the acclimation process is much more complex then the aquarist can fathom. I don't want to go cerebral on you, but the water conditions we routinely can measure (pH, salinity, temperature, ammonia, nitrite, etc.) are a 'drop in the bucket' when it comes to constituents of the bag water vs. QT water.

Of the above list of things we measure, the pH gives the most information on whether bag water has equilibrated with the destination water (QT water). Temperature and salinity can easily be matched, but pH is separate from those two measurements. That is, the pH can differ even when salinity and temperature are spot right on. So a pH match is a fair indication of how well the bag water has equilibrated with the destination water. Not perfect, though. But (and I think this is critical) by the time the pH has matched, the other dozens or even hundreds of other chemicals in the water, have gone to the concentrations that is of minor concern when the fish is put into the destination water where those chemicals don't yet exist or exist in very small concentrations.

What I'm trying to make clear is that pH is important, but just a tip of the iceberg/reason of why we acclimate. It's a tool aquarists can use in this process.

In the scheme of the new acquisition -- after acclimation to the new tank water I would perform a freshwater dip as I've described I've refined over the past few decades: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes

After that dip, the fish goes into the destination tank (QT). This is a long way 'round to get to your question's answer about methylene blue (MB). No. Not recommended to add to the bag water. Use it in the FW dip procedure. There is enough going on in the bag water. The use of MB is important to the trade and it often is used by many along the collector-exporter-importer-wholesaler-LFS route. I'm not adverse to what MB is used by them. I just don't recommend taking any chances by adding anything to the bag water that we are not sure won't create a problem or unknown scenario.

It's the LFS loss that is about 10%. The wholesaler import loss is usually around 15% -- higher on some species, lower on others; higher with some exporters, lower with others. It's a mixed bag.

Basically the 'better' the customer is perceived by the exporter, the better the customer is treated and that translates into a slightly better treatment of the order. Your LFS, probably an infrequent small-order customer, will be on the bottom of the list of those customers for the exporter/seller to please. You can expect anything regardless of the time of year.

If you had control, the fish would be individually and properly (water-to-oxygen ratio) packaged in a not-too-tight packed arrangement in the properly insulated box for the absolute minimum amount of time before departure, and verified healthy prior to packaging. Lastly, you'd want a direct air flight. Most fish loss happens when the box has to change planes en route, even when the change is on the same airlines.