What might be the cause of this?

[vaporize]

So here is the background, this is a qurantine tank, barebottom 2 x 33G with only live rock & skimmer, water overflow from top to bottom tank.

ammonia = 0ppm
nitrite = 0 ppm
Salinity = 1.021

All the clownfish that goes into this system goes through the acclimation process - FW dip w/ meth blue + formalin bath (1 time) before going into this system.

wild percula / ocellaris goes into the bottom tank (new wild arrival)
brown saddleback goes into the top tank (been in LFS for 3 weeks)

Symptoms:
- The fish is eating to begin with
- Then later the night, the fish displays fast breathing behaviour. No any signs of ich/velvet/brook type of parasites.
- The fish might try to scratch its gills against rocks/glass. (does not do that in the percula tank)
- Fish dies the next day (or 1.5 days max)

I have seperated a few percula that displayed these bevaiour into a new QT with seperate established water + new water (1.015 salinity). Added Furan-2 antibiotics, but does not show alot of improvements, maybe extended the life a little bit longer but fish does not improve.

Originally this symptoms are only seen in the bottom tank percula fish, however in about a week it is shown in the upper tank also leading me to believe that it is something that can be transported by the water (as suppose to jump from fish-to-fish).

Any idea what this might be? Will flukes cause something like this?

[leebca]

The rapid death and fast breathing is not usually associated with a fluke or gill macro-organism. A higher probability would be Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum).

[leebca]

The rapid death and fast breathing is not usually associated with a fluke or gill macro-organism. A higher probability would be Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum).

There is a chance the fish were not acclimated properly -- perhaps something that was overlooked or not measured.

[vaporize]

But marine velvet usually have the signs of dusty white dots at terminal stage right? I do not observe any of that even after the fish is dead.

Thanks

[vaporize]

There is a chance the fish were not acclimated properly -- perhaps something that was overlooked or not measured.

How long would the acclimation stress surface itself? The fish seems to be okay and eating for a few days.

I guess acclimation stress of this kind will be contributing to physiological damage that cannot be recover?

[leebca]

Marine Velvet (MV) can come on so quickly that about the only symptom that will be seen is fast breathing. Brooklynella can have a similar fast effect, but not usually. The dusting or sheen from MV may not have time to appear before the gill infection kills the fish. A skin scraping on a live fish, observed under a microscope would tell a lot and resolve the guess work. You might also try a Cupramine treatment on the still-living fishes to see if that helps them survive. But this should be done without live rock or substrate in the QT (which has been mentioned before).

An acclimation problem can surface within the first few days. There are some who present a case that acclimation issues can appear and even be responsible for a fatality as much as 180 days after acquisition. But in most circles the common belief is that an acclimation problem surfaces within a few days. The 'Sudden Death Syndrome' has been attributed in part to acclimation issues. So, this fatality can occur without any obvious outward signs or symptoms. It can be mental, or physiology.

Since you've invested a lot of time, money, and effort into your project, you might want to get a hands-on diagnosis from a local professional. A college, university or State laboratory may shed some light on what's happening.

I'm still here to help and answer questions, but I think it is in your best interest to resolve these deaths as soon as you can.

[vaporize]

Thanks Lee, appreciated the insights as always.

I am deciding if I might actually invest in getting a microscope, I know there are some clownfish breeder that get one and can take photo with them. Something similiar to the ones use in University (I belive it's 500-600X), would that be sufficient? That would help my quest on disease fighting.... which seems ongoing these days with every new fish.

Would you also have any online references to the common pathogens and parasites? I was listening to talking reef one time and a highschool teacher mentioned that he found a website with pictures of marine ich, he was showing his class how to use the microscope to ID organisms in their school marine aquarium.

Thanks & cheers, vapo

p.s. Doesn't seem like there are school in my city that has marine biology lab thou. I can try contact the zoo.

[leebca]

There are about three 'levels' of microscopes depending upon the depth you'll like to get into and the skills you possess. The low level, which many hobbyists can easily obtain, easy to use, not very expensive and fairly good enough to see Cryptocaryon irritans and some of the parasites are the home-amateur scopes. They can magnify with fair resolution up to 400x with some stretching up to 600x. A couple such types are: Motic Digiscopes 150 & 300. They are in the $200 or less range.

For work with smaller-than-protozoa you need a more powerful scope with better resolution. You'd want a student microscope that will provide you with 700x to 1000x power, good quality lens' and attachments. Maybe in the $1500. range.

For serious bacteriological work you'd want a 1000x or greater (preferably 1500x +) light microscope of excellent quality resolution, with most of the bells and whistles -- $3000. and up.

The low-end microscope (400x to 600x) will likely suit your purposes. Just be watchful on the kind of light source it comes with. It can make a significant difference in quality and ease of use. Some of these can be connected to your computer vis a vis a USB port. The monitor display can be captured in a file for later display, electronically transferring, and/or making a hard photo, and depends on the software that comes with the microscope.

Almost every state in the USA has a State lab that will almost always perform diagnostic work. You should check it out. There are also places you can ship fish for diagnostic work. It's surprisingly inexpensive to have a fish diagnosed considering that the work done at some teaching colleges would cost hundreds of dollars elsewhere or dozens of hours and sophisticated equipment to duplicate their service by the home aquarist.

As far as microscopic examples of the pathogens, there is no really good resource that brings it all together. You can hunt and search each one on the Internet or obtain a book with a few of them in it, like Dr. Edward Noga's book, Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment. If you find a resource that compiles them all, I would be interested in hearing about it.