Leebca..Need your diagnosis!

[bguile]

I have a Lemonpeel angel that has for the past week seemed to be breathing rather heavily. After a 3 week quarantine, he was pretty active in the display tank. He would hide under and between the LR but appeared to be doing fine and eating. On last week, he appeared to be slowing down and not as energetic as in the beginning and kind of half heartedly picking at food or algae on LR. I watched the other fish to see if they were following suit but they seemed fine and acting as normal. Since I noticed this, I have done a couple water changes and tried enticing him to eat with different offerings including Formula 1 and 2, SW and FW mysis, and Cyclopeeze. He totally ignores it, just moving in and out of the LR slowly panting harder each day. My current parameters are:
pH: 8.32
temp: 78.3
amm: 0
nitrates: 5ppm
Phos: 0
Calc: 420ppm
Alk: 9dkH

Thanks for your help. Also, I was able to get my hand on some Ultra Cure PX. I thought the idea was to get the fish to eat the gel drops. The problem is that when I do a drop, it seems to dissolve in the water immediately and not contain its gel form for the fish to eat.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear about the Angel. It appears to have gone from a relatively low stress condition to a higher stress condition. Going off their feed is one of the stress signs. The rapid breathing can be from a number of different sources.

You seem to be a very conscientious aquarist from all you've done and the data you've collected. However, the 3 week quarantine is about half the time you need to hold the fish in quarantine.

Have all your marine livestock in your display tank now, been through quarantine? What I'm trying to find out is if the display tank is truly parasite-free.

Your current display inhabitants could be living with something they can 'handle' but the newcomer can't. That is one and a not uncommon scenario. Another possibility is the fish has carried something into the display tank with it that didn't have time to show itself in the quarantine time interval. Still another is that the fish is being bothered by one or more of your other fishes, or something in the aquarium.

But to say what it is based upon the information you presented, is not possible. There are several conditions which have those same symptoms.

The way forward would be to isolate the fish (back into quarantine or a hospital tank) and to try and help the fish without other distractions.

[bguile]

I was thinking along the road that he should be returned for quarantine. However, what would you suggest I do from there? Medicate? If so, with what? I haven't Seen signs of ich or other parasites, and it doesn't appear that he's being just stressed by other fish as he swims around freely. Slowly, but freely. I have reviewed your "pooper-snooper "post and obtained the melafix, primafix ,Ultra Care PX, andthe human vitamin (the name escapes me now).

[leebca]

One thing being in a hospital tank can do for the fish is that you can lower the specific gravity to about 14ppt. This will relieve the fish of some 'normal' stress and make osmoregulation easier for it. The conserved energy could then go toward recovery or fighting off what may be bothering it.

The move to a hospital tank can give you the opportunity to apply some Vitamin B12 to the water to stimulate the fish's appetite. Although I have never had personal success with garlic juice and others have mixed results, it is also worth a try to soak some food in garlic juice just to see if it helps attract the fish's attention.

Isolated and observed, you might be able to pick up something that will help in a diagnosis.

If you're serious about keeping fishes (which our communications indicate you are), you may wish to consider stocking some basics for your 'fish medicine chest' as suggested here: Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet

Without further information, there's not much else to do other than lower the salinity. You have the internal parasite/worm med -- does that mean you have treated this and your other fish for internal parasites/worms? Is your display tank free of internal parasites/worms? The symptoms you report include those of a fish with internal worms (as well as a group of other things).

I don't have much faith in Melafix nor Pimafix. This reference is my knowledge about them: Melafix and Pimafix - How They Work and Don't Work

If by the human vitamin you mean B12. Then you're set to use it as an appetite stimulant. I can give more directions on that, later. If by the human vitamin you mean beta glucan, then you need to get the fish to eat in order for that to have a positive effect. You should keep a small amount of beta glucan on hand, in general. If the fish begins to eat, you want to give a boost to the fish's immune system. This is more info on boosting a fish's immune system: Fish Immune Boosters

Can you catch the fish without using a net? If you can, use a plastic bag to catch the fish, to help make sure the fish isn't harmed in the transfer process.

[bguile]

Thanks for the response again. I apologize, but earlier I was at work and was rushed a little but wanted to get something on the board so that I could get some idea as to next steps without losing too much time.

The medicines I picked up were some of the ones recommended in the "medicine cabinet" post. Since my last episode from when we spoke before I went out and got as many things as I could quickly get my hands on. Those being the Mela/Pimafix, Maracyn2, Beta glucan (the human vitamin I was referring to), Ultra Cure PX, and happened to end up with a product called Prazi-pro. I bought it in haste when I happened to see it in an LFS that I don't frequent too often and knew that I was looking for a medicine with praziquantel, but couldn't remember the name. I also did read your post on the mela/pimafix, but figured I'd purchase it as a general or initial treatment for new fish in quarantine if I saw the need.

Initially, I didn't see any reason to treat the fish for internal parasites but after seeing him get sluggish and half heartedly pick at things in the tank I thought that maybe I should. I didn't find anything on the Ultra Cure PX that would harm any corals or inverts (rather, what I have left of them) so I decided I would go ahead and treat all the fish in the display, just in case. However, to my dismay I found that the moment I dropped the gel into the water it disentigrated within seconds. The instructions says to feed 2-5 drops per fish but with it dispersing so fast how could they ever get to eat it? So I decided I would soak their food in it although the instructions said to not feed the fish for at least 24hours. Of course, all the other fish ate but not the angel. So I don't know if it was affective for the other fish, or if it was even necessary for them.

I can catch him without a net, shouldn't be a problem. I'll put him in the hospital tank and drop the salinity. How long should I wait before doing anything else? I know its probably hard for you to say without seeing him personally, but what would you look for to say "Ok, that didn't work..what's next?".

Also, I think I do have a b12 vitamin around the house. How much should I add to the water? I'll also give the garlic a try.

[leebca]

I got the picture.

Vitamin B12 is flavored for humans. Most are flavored with a cherry extract. Not the best one to use, but it is really hard to find B12 that isn't flavored. Still, read the label and see what all is coming with the B12.

Most B12 tablets come in 500 or 1000 microgram tablets/capsules. You want to add 1000 micrograms for every 10 gallons of water in the hospital tank. The pill/tablet should be pulverized and dissolved in some salt water in a glass container. The dissolved B12 saltwater should then be added to the hospital tank.

B12 is not stable in saltwater. This can be repeated daily. But if the fish doesn't respond in two days, it probably won't.

After you drop the salinity over a two-day period, wait one extra day. If the fish isn't eating still, do the B12 for two days. No results; do the garlic extract for two days. Watch for any signs of a problem that can be diagnosed.

If there isn't anything to visually see, then the above is about all I can think to do. While you are trying to get the fish to eat try some live adult brine, if you can find any. Live Mysid shrimp would be good to try. Offer dried algae on a clip daily and buy some living clams from the seafood store. Wash them and open them (use muscle, not heat). Leave the meat on the shells and freeze the opened clams. After 24 hours, thaw and drop it into the tank in the hopes it will interest the fish.

[bguile]

Thanks. I will give these a try and update you on results. You've said that the angel appears to be exhibiting signs of having worms, should I still attempt to administer the Ultra Cure PX? The other medication I have is a water treatment vs. the "eaten" treatment you recommended in the medicine chest post. Should I try that since he may be too far along to eat?

[leebca]

I would go ahead and treat for worms. The symptoms though are the same for many other conditions.

[bguile]

Like ich maybe? I believe that's what we're up against.

After posting yesterday evening, I left out to take care of a few things and the angel was swimming as before. However, this time he was about mid-tank height basically hovering facing the back of the aquarium. When I got back home I found him laying under a rock laying on his side and still breathing heavily. He was looking that death pale at his lower half too. I removed him from the display and placed him into a hospital tank and began lowering the salinity by drip a little faster than suggested because I was not sure how long he'd live in that state. I let it drip overnight. I really didn't expect that he'd live until the next day b/c he didn't seem to even have enough strength to swim, but I did it anyway.

This morning as I approached the tank, I could see him in the same spot and he was looking really pale and I thought he was dead. When I turned on the light I saw that he was still alive but breathing heavily. That's when I noticed the white spots. The salinity then was 1.014 so I continued to drop it to 1.008.

It's now lunch time and I don't see any of the white spots on him externally and he's seemed to regain a lot of his color even in the areas that were pale on yesterday. He's still not swimming, but his pectoral and tail fins seem to be moving a lot more with occasional bursts as attempts at swimming upright. I haven't medicated the tank yet since I saw the ich, only dropped salinity. Any other suggestions? I'm sure I'll need to help build his immune system to combat this but of course, he's not eating. i thought I remember reading something about water additions that can be added if the fish isn't eating on its own.

[leebca]

On the positive side, you have a possible diagnosis. On the downside, you may be dealing with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans).

I think the actions you've taken so far are excellent, considering the situation. Good job!

Don't be fooled by the lack of visible spots. It's still there.

At the low salinity, watch pH and other water quality matters very closely.

The fish, holding on at the edge of life, it's best not to try anything else for the time being. A freshwater dip can help rid some of the parasites from the gills, but the stress of the dip might send the fish over the edge.

You could add some vitamins to the water. A water soluble vitamin mix, like Vita-Chem can be added to the water.

In the state the fish is in, it has a low probability of survival. However, I would proceed to treat for a bacterial infection. Often a fish in a depleted state/condition with Marine Ich (like your fish) will develop secondary bacterial infections. So, as soon as you can obtain a good antibiotic (I would suggest Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish, because it also contains an appetite stimulant) I would go ahead and treat the hospital tank water with that.

Other than the above, prayer is about all that's left.

The situation is worth reflecting upon. If the fish indeed has Marine Ich (MI), then your display tank contains MI. Even if the other fish don't show signs, they could either be immune or just about to show the signs of infection. Be ready for an outbreak of MI. You should rethink your quarantine procedure and extend it to at least 6 weeks. It can take weeks for MI to show itself.

Please keep us informed. You have our full support and attention. ;;

[bguile]

Thanks, will do. So far he's still hanging on. It seems that lowering the salinity has done a lot. Still breathing heavily, but it doesnt seem as rapidly as before. Also he's been able to prop himself upright in different areas of the hospital tank. I've medicated with maracyn 2 and ordered vita-chem. Will keep you all updated.

[bguile]

Leebca,

The Lemponpeel Angel is still surviving and seems to be moving more toward recovery. He's still not swimming on his own totally yet, but still tries. I haven't witnessed any Ich spots on him the past two mornings and respiration has almost returned to normal. I'm still waiting for my VitaChem order to arrive so that I can get him the proper nutrition since he's still not eating yet.

I am starting to notice though something that I've seen in an angel I had before and it wasn't good. It looks like some type of bloating in the abdomen area. I've attached pics of a Flame Angel I had before but lost during hyposalinity treatment for ich.

The Lemonpeel has not bloated this big, but I'm starting to notice some of the same things that happened before the Flame did. The scales seem to stick straight out making the fish look fluffy and eventually bloats this size then dies. Do you know what this is? I believe I asked when it happened the first time but didn't get any responses.

I have begun raising the SG back to normal via slow drip. The hypo seemed to be doing so well for the ich and recovery of the fish, but it seems the pygmy's are sensitive to the low SG. I guess I'll have to use Formalin or Copper should the trophonts return. What are your thoughts or experiences in this? I'll see if I can get a good pic of the patient to post.

[leebca]

As a matter of fact, the pygmy angelfishes are very sensitive (in a negative way) to copper. About the only copper treatment suitable for this group of angelfishes is Cupramine. You may wish to read this for more information: Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

Regarding bloating, there are a few conditions that lead to this symptom. They include (in order of highest probability):
internal worms
internal infection
intestinal blockage (easily resolved -- is the fish pooping or not?)
gas buildup
other

In general, the fish would be treated for an internal infection and parasites. However, it leads to death on a fairly rapid road. If you've seen this before, the tank could contain the parasites that are leading to this system and until they are eradicated from your display tank, they may continue to plague new additions to the display.

[bguile]

Unfortunately, I was unable to save the fish. It expired on last week. It could've been that I waited too long to quarantine, or it could've been that I was using the wrong treatment the entire time. I just realized today that I've been using the Maracyn Two for FRESHWATER. I feel like such an idiot. Thank you Leebca however for your excellent effort with assistance and education. I will treat the other fish in a quarantine before adding any new additions to the display. I know to leave the tank fallow for 6-8weeks for Ich, but how do I treat for worms? Earlier you mentioned that I should treat for worms. The last case of my Flame Angel bloating was about a year or so ago in another tank. I have used some LR and sand from the old tank though and this has only happened to the Flame and Lemonpeel.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Please don't feel bad about the Maracyn. The only difference between Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes and Maracyn Two for Freshwater fishes is the addition (to the saltwater formula) of vitamins and ingredients that stimulate the appetite. So, the only disadvantage of having used the Freshwater formula is that your fish wasn't stimulated to eat. To be honest and frank, the medication rarely gets a fish to eat that wouldn't want to eat in the first place.

The treatment for worms is easy and is just a food additive. No need to move or catch fish. The info is in this post: Strange Excrement from Fish -or- How to be a Super Pooper Snooper

An aquarium of fish with worms is treated by treating all the fish at the same time. Make sure all fish eat the medication when the meds are offered.

I'm still not convinced what caused the death of your angel, so remain alert to any signs of stress from any of your fish.

[bguile]

Thanks. I will continue to keep an eye on the others. Around the time I mentioned that the Ultra Cure PX drops weren't working as instructed because it dissipated on contact with the water, I soaked some Formula One pellets in it and fed to the fish to see if they would eat it and they did. The instructions said not to feed for 24 hours and feed 5 drops per fish, it didn't seem like it was supposed to be an additive.