[vaporize]

Hi Lee,

Hope everything is going well. Looks like I encountered another disease question that I never have before.

(1) In my 2x35G QT system, I have a myjestic angel, clown trigger, banggai cardinal, damsel, clownfish (moved there after in copper for 3 weeks); all has been in the tank for about 4 weeks.

(2) When it first started, the myjestic stopped eating and start to have cloudy eyes, and slowly it infected the clown trigger (in the same tank), in the beginning it only showed as cloudy eyes. So I thought that is related to water quality and have some water change. It did not improve, the myjestic stopped eating but the clown trigger still eats very well. All other fish still eats like pigs and have no symptoms.

(3) About 3 days later, I noticed that there are very fine dusty white spot on the black clownfish, myjestic (and maybe clown trigger but can't see due to the pattern), so I think it is velvet. I have since moved the clownfish, clowntrigger, myjestic to my hospital tank with copper at 0.3 ppm (cupramine).

(4) The clownfish was still actively eating, however the white spot did not decrease alot. After 3 days, the clownfish displayed fast breathing and died. However the white spots from the myjestic angel and the clown trigger slowly disappeared; the clown trigger still have discoloration on its skin (still eating some). In the hospital tank is also a powder blue, neon dottyback and cleaner wrasse, they do not seem to be affected by the disease throughout the treatment

(5) At day 4 since treatment in hospital tank, it seems the banggai cardinal & damsel in the original QT was also infected, so I moved them to the 2nd level of the hosptial tank. I started to administer Furan-2 for secondary infection (thinking that the cloudy eyes and torn fin in the myjestic is caused by that).

(6) Now it is almost 8/9th day in the hospital tank, the myjestic has not ate for almost 2-3 weeks and swimming near the water surface. The clown trigger looked almost the same with cloudy eyes but still eating. Banggai cardinal started dying in the hosptial tank. The powderblue/dottyback/neongoby that reside in teh same tank as the myjestic and clown trigger is not affected.

I am starting to think if this might actually be a case of brook combined with velvet and 2ndary infections.

The main symptons on the myjestic angel is cloudy eye (to a point that it looked like the eye cover has a hole in it), and fin torn. Pictures are attached below.

Thanks for any insights on the treatment.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the troubles. One of my favorite Angelfishes is the Majestic, a.k.a. Girdled. Thanks for the photos, it does help.

Cupramine is a very good choice for a copper treatment. However, no copper treatment can be easily controlled when there is a carbonate based substrate or corals present. What is the substrate I see in that second photo?

Since the quality of the copper treatment is in question, I need to ask:
How are you testing for copper?
How often do you test for copper?

Cloudy eye often precedes a disease and when it doesn't, and it is a 'stand alone' condition, it is often a bacterial infection. One cloudy eye can be helped through water changes and improved nutrition with immune boosters (See: Fish Immune Boosters). Two cloudy eyes need attention/treatment.

Both Brooklynella and Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) can kill very quickly -- a 'trademark' of Marine Velvet (MV), not so much with Brook. Usually by the time you see the tiny specs that is characteristics of MV, the fish is beyond help.

As we spoke about before, too many fishes in too few QTs. They are having to contend with space stress as well as tank mate stress. You are about to face the biggest drawback to having multiple fish in a QT, that of treatment. All fish must be treated, even if they don't show signs of a disease. This puts more stress on those that don't need it. But if you don't properly treat all fishes you won't get rid of the disease(s).

Without testing the fish for the disease(s) they have, it is hard to suggest a way forward. However, if you are convinced of the double disease with a bacterial influence then you need to continue with a properly controlled copper treatment.

Your 0.3ppm Cupramine concentration is at the bottom edge of effectiveness. I would hold it at 0.5

Copper can be used with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish (which also contains an appetite stimulant). So your QT water should be properly treated with copper and Maracyn Two.

Brooklynella is often brought on by stress, which under the circumstances, seems to be the situation. You can battle it, but if you don't remove the stress, the fish are going to suffer in the long run. If you don't/can't or are unable to set up more QT space, I think you can likely expect additional losses.

The best treatment for Brooklynella is formalin baths. However, the use of formalin is not recommended with copper. You can perform a formalin dip. But the multiple dip process is a strain when there are multiple fishes in the QT. Still that seems the way forward. Follow these guidelines for the Formalin dip sequence. (Remember, the Formalin treatment is a series of dips/baths.)

Formaldehyde: Friend or Foe - Treating Saltwater Fish Diseases

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

Since the quality of the copper treatment is in question, I need to ask:
How are you testing for copper?
How often do you test for copper?

Using RedSea & Seachem copper test kit to test for copper.
Tested it twice in the beginning when I have added copper.

Originally Posted by leebca

Cloudy eye often precedes a disease and when it doesn't, and it is a 'stand alone' condition, it is often a bacterial infection. One cloudy eye can be helped through water changes and improved nutrition with immune boosters (See: Fish Immune Boosters). Two cloudy eyes need attention/treatment.

What "attention/treatment" should I be using? Is it just anti-bioticis or other things?

- At this point, I am not sure if brook is a cause of the symptoms as I do not see any more skin peel off from the myjestic or other fish. From the picture, does it show any signs of brook?

Thank you again for your help.

[leebca]

I don't see enough of the usual signs of Brooklynella from the photos. The 'hanging around the top of the tank' is the usual sign of a breathing problem. This can be a symptom of either Brooklynella or Marine Velvet. Since you don't see any other signs of Brook, then I would go with the Marine Velvet diagnosis.

The Seachem test kit for copper is a difficult test to perform. Unfortunately, earlier this year and late last year, Seachem had a bad chemical in their copper test kit and it gave false readings. I'm unsure of the Red Sea test kit for copper, however I am sure that the Salifert copper test kit tests for the presence of copper in Cupramine very accurately.

During a copper treatment you have to test for copper at least twice a day. Since your tank has substrate in it, the copper test should be done every four to six hours and an hour after additions. Add more Cupramine to compensate for the copper that may be absorbed/preciptated into the substrate. If the pH should fluctuate, the absorbed/preciptated copper will be released and, instead of a cure, the copper concentration will go high and kill the fish. This is one particularly important reason for not having carbonate-based substrate in a quarantine or hospital tank.

The 'attention/treatment' would be if the cloudy eye is bacterial in origin. I think you should be treating with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes and Cupramine. By the Salifert test kit, the reading of copper should be held steady at 0.5 ppm. Take frequent readings and adjust the copper by additions of Cupramine. One hour after an addition, check the copper concentration. If the copper is allowed to go down in effective kill concentration, the MV will live and it will be like having to start the treatment all over again.