[weez1959]

PH is 8.16 right now.
Salinity is at 1.017
The Mysis I have are from Hikari and it doesn't say whether they are fresh or saltwater :P
I'll put a clip tomorrow morning. As for medication, I would have to order it and by that time who knows.... I'll see what I can find locally tomorrow.
I'll read the sooper pooper snooper thing but I think I need poop to tell something....
keep you posted,
Louise

[weez1959]

Good morning Lee,

I was taking pics of him this morning and caught him in the act of pooping so maybe he has been and it ends up disolving and being sucked into the filter before I can see it.
Either way I added a few new pics of him straight on to see his little bulge and side view for the spots. They haven't changed much if any, I've been keeping an eye on an upside down horse shoe shaped one on the top 4th brown stripe from the nose for reference. In the 3rd pic you can see him pooping! woo hoo!

I haven't noticed any scales sticking out so I guess that's a good thing.

I've called my LFS and they don't have much meds besides copper, Nifuripirnol, malachite and methylene blue so I guess I'll try to order today.

Other than that he's still eating well and hasn't started going crazy yet. Let me know what you think of the pics...

I also added his algae clip this morning, he nibbled a tiny bit.

I guess he won't need surgery after all, good thing because you can't even get a reptile vet around here :P

My husband suggested TurboLax, or squeezing him like a pimple but of course he was only kidding. He's getting pretty upset with seeing him so messed up too.

Louise

[leebca]

The shape of the fish is relatively 'usual.' Not to worry there.

Scales not sticking out is a good thing.

Keep offering the green algae. At lights off remove any uneaten algae and toss it. Put fresh in, in the morning.

You'll probably have to find a good Canadian online source for fish medications and the like. Big Al has a Canadian outlet, I think. I think Marine Depot ships into Canada.

Stores that provide an extensive supply of goods to pond and koi owners often have some medications used for both fresh and saltwater fishes, too. You might look up "pond" or "koi" in your phone directory, in addition to "pets."

The 'problem' with tangs and their cousins is that they don't have a particularly good mucous coating to begin with. That is one reason they are so susceptible to Marine Ich and many other invasive microbes. This fish will need some help to repair its mucous coating and that is what the other additives should be used for.

You might be prepared and have on hand some of the 'basics' when it comes to fish meds. I've listed them here:
Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet

Your attention to detail in the condition is commendable. Don't let up on that. There's a rash of a special kind of bacteria showing up recently. They are a particularly bad bacteria and few antibiotics work to rid the fish of them. These bacteria are also able to infect humans. During this treatment, please remember not to get your hands wet with the water. Use plastic gloves, tongs, etc. Skinny dipping is simply out of the question. (for now).

Note when you began treatment with the antibiotic. Usually there should be some visual improvement in 3 days after the treatment starts.

If after 3 days there is absolutely no improvement, then most likely the antibiotic isn't working and you'll need to switch antibiotics on the 5th day. This means it would be a good idea to obtain a different antibiotic, online, today. I can provide a list of my preferences, but I don't know what's available to you.

[weez1959]

He's been in Nirufpirinol for just over 24 hours now and he's also had a dose of Stressguard. The bottle says to add it daily, is this right?

I also got my hands on Metro+, powder form, says it can be used in the tank or on the food but if i want to use it on the food, it says to contact Hikari?!?
Says it contains:
metronidazole (2-methyl-5-nitroimidazole-1-ethanol) (active ingredient):sodium chloride, synthetic polmers and a chelating agent.

Do you know how I would feed this to him and should it be before or during the current treatment?
Thank again!
Louise

[leebca]

Daily additions. . .Yes. If you perform a water change, also add it to the new water.

I don't know what Hikari seems to be thinking about the feeding concern. I would hold off on the administering of the Metro+ at this time. I am very much in favor of de-worming all newly acquired fishes as per my sticky post on that subject, but since the fish is defecating more or less properly, I'd hold off until the fish is past its current condition. You'll use it, but just not at this time. Since there is time, you can contact Hikari to get that information.

To know how much to add to food, I'd need to know the percent (%) content the medication is of metronidazole. Hikari probably knows that and can properly provide an amount to be administered.

I'd continue to look for a source of Praziquantel or a medication that contains both Praziquantel and Metronidazole. You'll want to favor administering Praziquantel since it targets certain types of worms whereas Metronidazole targets dinoflagellates. It's worms you're after first and foremost.

Do you have access to NITROFURAZONE (in the products Furan-2, and Aquatronics’ Furacyn, and part of the makeup of Spectrogram)? It needs to be for saltwater fish because you want it to be stabilized for the higher pH that is the makeup of saltwater. This antibiotic is about the best against the 'tough' bacteria I alluded to before, and would be the one to switch to if and when the Nifurpirinol doesn't do the trick. Although a totally active (not past its shelf life or exposed to light) Nifurpirinol should prove successful.

The fight against bacteria is a little like shooting in the dark. You hope you hit the bacteria with the right antibiotic. Not all bacteria are equally sensitive to every antibiotic. The usual procedure is to identify the bacteria and determine which antibiotic is most effective against it. Then administer that antibiotic. The analytical tests cost about $50 or less here in the US and completed within 72 hours from a fish skin scraping. I suppose your location would not have such services from a Provincial operated fish farming lab, or school (college, university, veterinary, etc.)? I think I know what you're answer will be. Anyway. I am ahead of myself. Let's hope the antibiotic you're using will do the job.

I'm pretty much rarely available on this Friday while I travel to Europe, but will be online again Saturday a.m. your time.

Feed the fish as often as it will eat, but don't pollute the tank. Try to get some supplements of each: vitamins and fats, and those immune boosters into the fish.

[weez1959]

Thanks for everything, I'll keep you posted...
Louise

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,

Hope you had a nice trip

It's been 3 days as of this morning, 8:00 am and still no change. I will stop adding meds to the water changes that way when the new stuff arrives the Nifurpirinol will be mostly gone. Beside the package say to treat with this for only 3 days so I guess that would be the right way to proceed.

So far I've gotten my hands on Marcyn 2, Furanase, Prazi-Pro (Praziquantel) and of course the Metro+ which I got locally. I should hopefully have the rest of the meds by Tuesday.

I guess the only thing I can do for him until then is keep up his water changes and feedings.

I’ve been adding the Stressguard everyday and his vitamins, he’s still eating well, he’s such a trooper. I getting so tired of seeing him like this, I feel like I’m contributing to his torture

Anyways which of the new meds would be the best to try next?

Louise

[leebca]

Just got into my hotel in Zurich. This will be about my 'bedtime' from now until Wednesday.

The Furanase is Nifurpirinol so it won't be anything new.

Use the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes for the next 5 days while you obtain some Spectrogram or the antibiotic NITROFURAZONE.

Spectrogam is something (I reserve ) for very stubborn bacterial infections or those infections that can be transmitted to humans. I don't know if it's available to you there or whether you can get some other product that contains Nitrofurazone.

Careful with the spelling. Some of these antibiotics have very similarly spelled names! It can get confusing.

Hold off on the Praziquantel and Metro+.

[weez1959]

Would it be a bad thing to put him in Paraguard until the meds arrive? Right now he has no/trace meds and the lip sore he had when he arrived (and then went away) has come back and there's a small red spot in the sore.
Jeez this poor fish! At least he's still eating!
Louise

[leebca]

I would favor the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes if your suggestion is either this or ParaGuard.

ParaGuard's value is that it is a Malachite Green medication. Malachite Green is effective for some freshwater conditions/diseases, but isn't so effective on saltwater conditions. This doesn't mean to say it doesn't work. It is just that it usually doesn't 'complete' the job. For instance, most of the 'reef safe' chemicals contain Malachite Green (MG) and thus the makers can claim it kills a whole host of parasites, infections, etc., but what really happens is that MG doesn't kill all the marine organisms unless conditions are just right, which conditions usually aren't too good for marine life. That is why it isn't one of the primary meds in the saltwater med-kit. It is especially useful in some freshwater fish diseases and conditions.

That is why I would favor antibiotics and known drugs, rather than general medications with MG.

With the use of the antibiotics the likelihood of water quality going sour is very high. A fish's soar or skin lesion is very susceptible to water quality and often will 'grow' or 'shrink' based upon water conditions. The worsening to a lesion or soar is usually associated with nutritional deficiency and/or water quality. A marine fish will usually recover from this on their own, given the necessary conditions.

[weez1959]

Thanks Lee, I'll wait for the Maracyn Two, hopefully it will arrive tomorrow or Tuesday. I just moved him to a different tank with new water (1/2 water from display, matched the PH and temp perfectly), I was having trouble controlling the nitrites for the past couple days. Probably where the sore came from. Will the Maracyn kill off the filter also?
Right now he is in pH 8.1 temp 80 sp 1.017, he looks happy and still eating well. He didn't seem to mind the move at all which I guess is a good thing...

[leebca]

I thought you wrote that you already had the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes? My misunderstanding. Spectrogram would be the best to use if you get it first.

Maracyn Two should not kill off the biological filter. Spectrogram will likely kill the biological filter.

Probably the biggest challenge in a QT is water quality. The more you can control it, keep it high quality, and avoid changes, the easier it is on the fish.

You mention using display tank water? This is not preferred. You could be re-introducing bacteria that previous antibiotics have killed, or the microbes responsible for the fish's condition. I'd only recommend using new salt water made from artificial salt for all QT water changes. The source water needs to be the best you can provide. See: WATER - Source and NSW

[weez1959]

No I don't have them yet, I guess I got a bit sloppy with my grammar
I'm hoping for tuesday, of course tomorrow would be best but shipping slows down a bit before the holidays so that's like wishing for the lottery.
Oops about using the water in the DT! I thought it was a good thing for the filter.
He's never been in the DT so it didn't come from there. As for my water quality, I tested last night: amm 0 nitrite 0 nitrate <5 so hopefully it should be ok. But from now on I will use only new. I just fed him a bit again (3 feedings daily) and he ate it all again. Pooping still seems to be few and far between but I think it's just disapearing as fast as it comes out because of the consistency. I've added a pic of his mushy poo.

[weez1959]

I forgot to mention, about the spectrogram, Haven't found a source that will ship here yet, I will try to find some but for sure Maracyn Two will be here before that...
Louise

[leebca]

Originally Posted by weez1959

He's never been in the DT so it didn't come from there

Well, the fish sort of has been in the DT if the water comes from there. See what I mean? Still, the odds are that it came with its own set of microbes.

The free floating bacteria can help start the biological filter but can't keep it going. If the bio-filter doesn't establish itself, the QT water won't be made good by the use of DT water. The nitrification bacteria are 'sticky' and most reside on a surface rather than continuously float around. You need the volume/numbers that would reside in the biological filter rather than the water column.

Good luck!

[weez1959]

Originally Posted by leebca

Well, the fish sort of has been in the DT if the water comes from there. See what I mean?

I never thought of it that way! From now on new water only

I got the Maracyn Two today! I did a water change before adding his meds. I will need to change 50% of his water everyday because the nitrates show up pretty quick with him so I will have to add the original amount of meds to his new water plus the daily addition after, right? This is getting so confusing!
The packet says to add 2 tablets for 20 gallons the first day and 1 tablet each day after for 4 more days. Each tablet weighs .625 grams (I have a scale that weighs in 0.1 increments, I make beer and wine ) today I added .5 grams for the 8 gallons of water in the QT, so tomorrow I will be adding .25 to the new water and .25 to the tank. I hope this is right

Just to make sure, the stressguard is compatible with Maracyn Two?

Thats about it for now, he, hasn't changed much since the start, still eating well and swimming around.

Thanks again for all your help!

[leebca]

I'd back off the StressGuard. Use it every other day.

Don't worry about nitrates (unless you meant nitrites). Don't make water changes because of the nitrates. Do make changes for ammonia and nitrite readings.

If you make water changes, continue to add the original dosage to the new water and the old dosage to the old water. You think that's confusing?! It is!

I'm waiting for a plane to finally get me home, so I'm rushed. I don't remember the quantity of gallons in the QT you moved the fish into. However, let's get hypothetical.

Original QT volume: 20 gallons
Water Change: 10 gallons

To the original 20 gallons,the first does is 2 tablets.
Next day, you want to do a water change. You have two ways to do this:
1) To the original 20 gallons, add one tablet and wait for it to totally dissolve (a few hours after you don't see it). To the 10 gallons of water you want to change, you add one tablet (2/20 gallon ratio, right?). Dump the 10 from the QT and add the 10 makeup. You're done.
OR
2) To 10 gallons of fresh make up, add 2 tablets and let dissolve. (In essence, this is 1 tablet for the old water and 1 tablet for the new water). Dump 10 gallons from the 20 QT and add the makeup.

Each method provides a variance in concentration. But if you're consistent, you're within the effective range of the medication, no matter which way you choose to go.

Use the above to figure your ratios. I'm sorry I don't have time to check your figures today. I probably couldn't be trusted after a 10-hour flight anyway.

Just a check --- this is the correct dosage if the specific gravity was lowered. If the specific gravity was raised to normal concentrations of salt, you'd double the instructed dosage on the box. I'm assuming you haven't raised the specific gravity since you had lowered it.

I think you're doing well.

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,

Hope you had a nice trip, now you'll have to recover!

Yup I was out to lunch, I meant nitrites! They manage to creep up to 0.25 everyday so I do 50% water changes everyday.

My QTs have 8 gallons of water in them, They are both the same size. I'm planning on changing him over again on thursday and again on saturday which will be med free by then unless you think I should treat for more than 5 days with the Maracyn Two.

I think he's looking a little better but maybe that's just me and wishful thinking. I still think his belly is a bit bulgy but no scales sticking out that I can see. I do have PraziPro and Metro+ now so if you think he needs deworming let me know.

My salt levels are still at 1.017ish.

Tomorrow I will post a new pic of him so you can see if he's progressing or not.

I've been looking at him up close a lot and I'm wondering if whatever it is could be his scales have discolored?

One last question, I have something called PROBIOTIC MARINE FORMULA. It claims it is a full spectrum disease preventive. I got suckered into buying it from my LFS and if I look on the bottle it doesn't list any ingredients. Was I had or is this a good product?

Thanks for everything and little Elvis (the Sailfin) thanks you too...

Louise

[leebca]

One advantage of having a 'set' of photos is that you compare them to see if there is any change. Looking at the fish daily, can let something slip by!

Maracyn Two can be used for a second 5-day treatment. If you don't see results within the first 5-day treatment, then either switch antibiotics to like that of Spectrogram or continue with Maracyn Two for another 5-day treatment.

It could be scale damage. How much 'struggle' did the fish make when it was netted (by anyone; anytime starting with the LFS)? Could it have gotten some net damage? This is not uncommon. That is why I suggested the StressGuard, it will work on this part of the condition, too, if the condition had any relation to how the fish had been handled.

I don't know the Probiotic product. Maybe you can find more info on it from the manufacturer's website? My personal policy to use nothing I don't know either, what is in it or, how to test for it.

De-worming will be coming soon.

[weez1959]

I don't think netting was an issue, although the LFS where he was from don't keep their nets very clean, mostly leaning on tanks on the floor.

The probiotic stuff has no website, made by PRECISION AQUARIUM.

Haven't found the Spectrogram so it may be 2 Maracyn Two treatments.

Louise