Please help ID this disease

[weez1959]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and I haven't had time to finish my profile but I will later on in the day. This looks like a great site and I was told someone could help me.
Right now I have an urgent matter with one of my fish.
I got him about a week and a half ago, put him in a QT and he looked ok but on closer inspection with a flashlight he looked terrible. I'm pretty sure it isn't ich because it's not raised specs. It's more llike flat whitish patches. He's still eating but he's very timid.
He's been in hypo but I was told it wouldn't help so I slowly raised his salt up over 3 days and started him on copper 4 days ago. Up to now no change.
Please look at the pic and let me know as quickly as possible because I don't want to lose him...
Louise

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND Louise!

Sorry this trouble was the cause of your first post, but I'm glad you posted.

The fish is showing symptoms of 'poisoning.' Are you sure the 'patches' aren't raised or moving around? I know. Hard to tell, but try.

By this broad use of the term poisoning it can be ammonia, nitrites, etc., water quality in general (e.g., pH and/or temperature fluctuations), metal contamination in the water, less than good acclimation procedure, or any combination of these.

It isn't unusual for the QT water quality to be hard to control. Are you monitoring it daily (maybe twice a day) for ammonia, nitrites, pH and temperature? What else is in the QT? More info on the QT may help zero in on a QT source of the poisoning.

Do the tests (see above). Then: Make up freshly prepared salt water and before you use it, test it for ammonia and nitrites. Use freshly prepared salt water that has mixed according to the manufacturer's recommended time, match the pH and temperature precisely with the current QT water and do daily large (above 60%) water changes.

It is always best first to diagnose the condition before treatment. If this is a poisoning, it could be that the copper treatment will exacerbate the fish's condition and could kill it. When you perform the water changes, don't replace the copper treatment/medication.

Slowly lower the specific gravity to about 1.016 to 1.017 and hold it there until this matter is resolved. For this, it is best to use a refractometer. Hold pH steady (preferably for this fish, at 8.30). For this, it is best to use a pH meter.

Obtain some antibiotic, since this condition will most likely lead to a bacterial infection. I would suggest obtaining immediately, some Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes and begin dosing as prescribed in the medication instructions.

Since the fish is eating, you want to include in the food, immune boosters (see reference below). You don't mention if the fish was given any kind of prophylactic treatment (e.g., freshwater dipped) or the method you used to acclimate the fish to the QT, nor where the fish came from (LFS, online, friend, etc.). There are many opportunities for these symptoms to be picked up in the time from when the fish was acquired to when you first noticed them.

So. . .to be clear:
Look for water quality issues
Water changes
Sp. Gr. to 1.016 to 017
Keep pH and water quality steady
Antibiotic treatment

Keep us informed of the progress.

I think you'll find the following posts pertinent and useful:
A Fish Quarantine Process
Fish Immune Boosters
It Was Acclimation, I know. . .

[weez1959]

The patches are not moving or raised.
He's in a 10 gallon all by himself and his water is pretty good,
amm 0
nitrites 0
nitrate under 10
PH 8.0 ish - pinpoint monitor
alk 3.5
temp 80
Gravity 1.023

He was acclimated slowly, closed bag 20m then 1/4 cup tank water every 10m until double water volume, dump out 1/2 water start over and net into tank.

Thw QT filter (aquaclear 30) was in my sump for about 2 weeks before I got him and he isn't too big (2" body) so I'm not having trouble keeping his water optimal.

Unlike the hippo tang I have with ich in another QT, he's pretty big and his tank has been hell!

He's been getting 40% water change daily. Eats pretty well too.
I had him almost 1 week in hypo with no results so I brought him back up slowly over the course of 3 days which didn't seem to bother him too much.
I use a refractometer to test salinity so it shold be pretty accurate.
I will try to bring up his PH to 8.3 during the next day.
I have Bactopur (nifurpirinol) is this the same as what you mention? would this do the same or should it be what you mentioned (Maracyn Two)

After this morning's water change I didn't replace the copper so I will wait to hear from you...

I'm sorry if this reply is such a mess order wise but I'm trying not to forget anything you asked about...
Louise

[weez1959]

I forgot to mention, I alternate selcon and garlic guard in his food which he doen't seem to notice.
Also in caes there is no Maracyn Two at my LFS, can you suggest anything else, I'll go in about an hour to check if they have it and like I said, I do have Baktopur but my LFS says it's pretty harsh so use only if I have to.
Louise

[weez1959]

I just got back from the LFS and I'm told it's not available in Canada and all he has is what I have which is nifurpirinol...
Louise

[leebca]

Don't worry about the flow or context of the posts. I'll figure it out!

Nifurpirinol (furanace or furanase) is good. If you have this, use this instead of the Maracyn Two. For once (and it is rare!) I agree with the LFS. This drug is pretty 'strong.' Just be sure to follow directions closely and if you are making water changes, you need to keep the medication at a constant concentration. My personal preference is to add the med to the newly prepared water before you make the water change so the fish 'sees' no change in medication concentration.

Raise the pH very slowly. I'd suggest 0.10 pH unit per day. Don't forget to lower the salinity. The lower specific gravity gives the fish some stress relief and allows the fish to divert its energy reserves to fighting the condition.

Selcon is good, but only half of what you need. Get a good vitamin (see this reference: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition). Selcon is mostly a fat supplement, you also need a vitamin supplement, such as VitaChem and the immune boosters mentioned in the other post.

If you can, please post a couple more photos. See if you can get a clear, closeup of the side area. Close-up blurred doesn't help; close-up with low resolution doesn't help much either. See what you can do.

Think. Are there any other behavior things or visual things you can notice about this fish? What is its 'breathing rate' (count number of gill openings per 15 seconds and multiply by 4 for the count/minute)?

One last question. About its origin. Where and how did you get it?

Observations:
Avoid using a net during transfer and acclimation. Use a plastic bag to 'capture' the fish.
The acclimation procedure you used isn't bad, but I would have gone slower with this species, more in tune with the reference guidelines.

[weez1959]

I got him at my LFS and he looked fine but on closer inspection with a flashlight I noticed the splotches which increased slowly.
breathing rate is 144 per minute which sounds like an awful lot! But he does get nervous when I get close so I don't know if this is acurate.
About the Nifurpirinol. There is still some copper in the water. can this be added with the copper or should I run cuprisorb first and for how long? Will the cuprisorb interfere with the nifurpirinol?
I just replaced 12% of the water with fresh which has brough his salt level to 1.021 and will do 6 litres tomorrow which will bring it to 17, is this ok?
Sorry about all the questions but I'm at a loss.....
Louise

[leebca]

Copper should not be used in saltwater along with the sulfa based antibiotics. The dilute copper with Nifurpirinol is okay.

Nifurpirinol is light sensitive. If what you have is old and exposed to light, it may not be any good. Is there any expiration date on the med? When put into the aquarium, dim the lights on the aquarium.

The 'breathing' is just about twice what it should be. It should be 75 to 85. Check now and then when and if the fish seems to be more calm. Get an average.

Water changes and dilution is at a good rate.

Ask anything you need to know or are concerned about.

When my fish get ill, I get ill, too.

[weez1959]

Here's a pic or 2 more but they don't change much...

[leebca]

Thanks for the photos.

In addition to what you're doing and planning on doing I would recommend one more thing. I'd like you to provide the fish with some mucous coating support.

There are a group of fish water 'additives' which promote a healthy mucous coating. I don't know what's available to you there, but here I could get:

Pro Tech Coat Marine, or
StressGuard

Are either of the above available to you? Give your LFS a call if you don't have any in your cabinet. Follow the directions for the QT.

[weez1959]

I have Prime made by Seachem also which mentions the slime coat, I can use that tonight otherwise I will have to wait until tomorrow as they are already closed for the day.

[leebca]

Not the same. Not as specific as the ones I've mentioned.

[leebca]

Just noticed. . .Each photo is the same side of the fish. Do both sides of the fish have the same markings to same degree?

[weez1959]

yup, pretty much the same but he won't turn around while I'm there unless I put my hand near the tank but then I can't take the pic not to mention that it stresses him out a bit. If I can figure out a way of taking a pic I'll post it.
I'll try and get the stressguard tomorrow,
Thanks for all your help, I'll keep you posted...
Louise

[weez1959]

Just a quick off topic question....
Are you a he or a she? It's because whenever I'm talking to my husband or daughter about your help I don't know if I should be saying "he said" or "she said" I know Lee is either like Kim or Kelly etc.
Also I read your profile, quite impressive!
Louise

[leebca]

I'm a 'he.' Also see: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

[leebca]

Sorry I forgot to mention earlier. I guess I got directly involved with the fish's problem. I try to make it a point to congratulate hobbyists who are using a quarantine process.

Using a quarantine process shows that the aquarist not only care about the fish acquired, but about the fish and marine life already in your display and under your care. It's a sign of intelligence and diligence towards the hobby. Good job!

[vaporize]

Just a quick off topic question....
Are you a he or a she? It's because whenever I'm talking to my husband or daughter about your help I don't know if I should be saying "he said" or "she said" I know Lee is either like Kim or Kelly etc.
Also I read your profile, quite impressive!
Louise

Now you know why I refer you to here :P I just love to pick LEE's brain on all my disease questions (yes and there are tons), he is a great teacher.

[weez1959]

I just realized that there may be another problem with him, I don't remember him pooping. I know I'm not always there but I can tell you that whenever I'm feeding my regal tang, (in a different tank of course) he starts crop dusting almost right away. (he also likes to wait until I do his daily water change) I don't remember seeing any poo in his tank either and his belly looks pretty round. could this also be constipation? Is there anything that can be done about that?
The only thing he will accept right now is prime reef flakes, frozen formula 1 and frozen mysis. I tried to give him a clip with seaweed selects brown algae but he won't touch that. He does eat a bit of it if I presoak it and shread it up in his water but he won't eat enough to prove he's a herbivore...
Louise

[leebca]

This is getting more complicated.

If you are treating with the Nifurpirinol that we previously discussed, then that would/should also clear up any internal or systemic bacterial infection. This is one (and the primary) cause of bloating.

Look closely at the anal region. Anything unusual there? Normal or abnormal? Are any scales lifting off the fish (sort of sticking up)?

Keep green algae on a clip in the tank for this fish. Remove it (any uneaten) in the evening before lights out, and replace it in the morning after lights on. Don't worry too much about the food at this point. It is more important to get the fish well, then you can address nutritional needs. Feed it what it will eat, but if you can get some mysids (saltwater mysis) rather than freshwater mysis, that would be an immediate improvement.

Without any signs of defecation, and already addressing the bacterial infection possibility with the antibiotic, it leaves the possibility of an intestinal blockage (something physical) or intestinal/abdominal parasites. Unfortunately, there are many different intestinal/abdominal parasites that affect different organs. Let's hope it's a common intestinal parasite. Those are fairly easy to address.

Again. . .Canada. Check out what I posted here:
Strange Excrement from Fish -or- How to be a Super Pooper Snooper

The treatment for worms is primarily Praziquantel. The other medication is Metronizazole to treat dinoflagellates. There are medications that combine the two. Read the above reference and the suggested medications to see what might be available to you. It is mixed with the food and can be fed to the fish while all this other treatment is going on.

If it's a physical blockage, surgery is the answer. If its an inflammatory response to an internal organ parasitic attack, it is very hard to diagnose without sacrificing the fish.

What is the specific gravity of the water the fish is now in? The pH?

If the fish comes up with another symptom, I think the fish might qualify for an award or something.