[philolsen]

I noticed what appears to be ICK on my Kole tank so I put it a 39 gallon tank I am setting up to eventually be a reef, I have noticed a very little bit of white on the top fin of my Huma Huma trigger, I also have a Yellow Tang and 2 Damsels but they do not show any signs at all. I have Isolated the Kole because he has lots of white dots but dont want to put the trigger in with it, if the trigger gets more distinct issues I will put it in the other tank as well. Is there anything I can add to the 38 to help save the Kole? If needed I may have to treat the display as well, it is a 90 with about 100 Lbs live rock with polyps, mushrooms and feather dusters so I would like to know if I can treat that tank directly. The strange thing is I do have a UV on the display with a 5 month old bulb so this is totally unexpected as I thought it would prevent ICK issues.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the troubles. First, you should be clear that the UV does not prevent nor eliminate diseases. I mentioned its value to control bacterial blooms and large populations of water-borne micro organisms in previous posts. The value of UV are for water clarity, reducing the number of micro algae and bacteria in the water, and the disruption of proteins.

If you have the correct diagnosis and the fish are infected with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), then there are only three known, for sure, treatments. They are copper, hyposalinity, and the transfer method.

The display tank cannot be treated by any of these methods. So the way forward is to remove all fish from the display tank and put them into hospital tanks. The parasite, fortunately, dies off without a fish host. The display tank goes fishless for no less than 8 weeks and then is Marine Ich free.

In hospital tanks, you treat the fish with one of the above three methods. Once the fish are clear of any visible signs of the disease, you continue to hold them in the hospital tanks for another 4 weeks for observation and verification. After both the display and the fish are 'cured' then put the fish back into the display.

[WillieM96]

Lee-

I have been churning the gears in my brain for a long time about ick. I completely agree that the methods you post are the only proven methods to work, so I'm not trying to discourage anyone from attempting those methods. I think I am still a little confused as to the nature of ick.

From my understanding, the parasite will always be present in some amount, especially at the LFS. The determining factor as to whether a fish becomes infected seems to be stress, which is obviously present when you put a fish into a new tank. If a fish in your aquarium comes down with ick, obviously, a stressing factor must be present. Wouldn't moving the fish to a new quarantine tank increase the amount of stress on the fish, reducing it's chances of survival? I have tried the quarantine process once and the fish only lasted a day in the new environment (it may have been on its way out in the first place- no way to know for sure). In 2 subsequent cases of ick, I left both fish in the tank and did nothing. One died and one recovered and in neither instance did it spread to any of the other fish. Is there any validity to these observations or did I just get lucky in it not spreading?

[leebca]

We know more about Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) than about any other marine disease. Not because of the hobby but because of the millions spent on it from the aquaculture and fish farming industries.

This is only some of what we know about Marine Ich (MI), whether aquarists choose to believe it or not:
1. MI is an obligate parasite. It can only live and reproduce with a fish host.
2. Some fish have defenses against the parasite that gives them the opportunity to develop an immunity of sorts before the fish dies from the parasite. Consider this -- if the parasite kills all its hosts, the parasite will die too.
3. In the aquarium, the fish can't get away from the parasite so the captive nature of the aquarium benefits the parasite by shifting the 'natural' ratio towards many more parasites than fishes.
4. Regarding the reverse of 3. -- In the wild the fish travels around and can get away from large numbers of the parasite.
5. Any bony marine fish, marine water, rock, substrate, etc. from the ocean can contain the parasite in one or more of its life stages.
6. Regarding 3. -- Even a fish with great defenses cannot always handle a large outbreak of the disease.
7. Regarding 2. -- A fish in captivity can lose its immunity and defenses built up to the parasite such that a few months later when again exposed to the parasite, can die from an attack.
8. A fish can have the disease and the aquarist won't know it. The parasite primarily targets the gills where more water passes through than over the body parts. The aquarist can't see an infection in the gills.
9. Regarding 8. -- The only stage the parasite is seen is when it is at the Trophont stage (visible at the end of this infected stage as a white spot on the fish just before it drops off) on the skin or fin of the infected fish.
10. Thus regarding 9. -- A fish can even be infected on its skin and fins without being seen by the aquarist.
11. Despite all these characteristics, the parasite can be prevented from entering into any display tank.

The observations you've made and experience can all fit comfortably into what we know. However, there can be disease-free aquariums. My home aquariums have been MI free since 1970. More than 1,000 fishes later, still MI-free. I quarantine everything, just like is done at all public and private aquariums.

As long as there is MI lurking about in the display aquarium, there is always an opportunity for it to bloom. You are right in one sense about the stress. A stressed fish is more likely to die from the disease. It simply runs out of energy reserve before it can develop immunity or before it can survive the onslaught. But remember MI is an obligate parasite. What most people mix up is the ability of the fish to get infected with the fish dieing from the infection (where health and condition come into play).

Every fish whether healthy, stressed, sick, or strong is equally able to get infected. The weak ones just die quicker or the stronger ones IF they have the physiology may survive the attack. When it comes to infection, MI doesn't care if the fish is healthy, stressed, or sick.

Think of MI more along the terms of a Tapeworm. If a human gets the Tapeworm eggs inside, it doesn't matter if the human is healthy, sick, weak or strong. The Tapeworm takes up residence in the intestinal track. Does a sick person get them inside easier than a healthy person. No. Each kind of person gets infected by swallowing the eggs or eggs going through the skin, regardless of their health. MI parasites infect the weak as well as the strong. What is observed is that the weak die quicker or those in between show the symptoms.

The quarantine process should be less stressful than the fish being in the main display tank. What humans tend to do is project their emotions onto the fish. The fish 'looks unhappy' in the QT. Wish I had a dime for. . .

If the reader can get into the quarantine process and provide the needed optimal conditions, the reader will find that marine fish being alone in a properly sized and controlled high quality environment, being hand-fed the greatest and most nutritious diet, is the greatest thing that can happen to a newly acquired wild caught fish since it was 'yanked' out of its home.

Now let's talk about the fish that 'recovered.' What did that fish go through. Humans forget that fish feel. More studies are being done to verify the initial work which indicates that fish can 'feel.' (This will turn the whole fishing sport in turmoil--maybe! ) A fish with MI in the beginning stages is a like a human with 2 dozen mosquito bites. How does that feel? Only these mosquito bites don't all go away. They keep getting replaced until the body finally starts getting ahead of the reappearance. I don't and won't put my fish through that. I liken the 'let's wait and see approach' to "Let's see if grandma recovers from pneumonia and not take her to the hospital." :slap:

MI infection is very easily prevented and kept out of the home aquarium. Most LFSs just put copper or chemicals in their system so that the fish looks good enough to get it out of their tanks and into the aquarists' tanks. The fact that many Marine fishes come to them infected is of no surprise since the fish are kept together with other fishes along the way. So they will run the copper in their system (which the aquarist can test for, BTW) and deny it to customers or only tell those who pin them down. But the MI parasite does not have to be in the display tank. That is up to the aquarist. It is rumored that it can't be stopped by mostly those who don't want to fight it or prevent it. It is especially claimed that MI can't be stopped by those who run a bad quarantine process and blame it on the parasite rather than on the person running the quarantine.

But the aquarist can 'draw the line' at their display/show tanks by doing the quarantine and diligent observation.

You asked about luck? It isn't your luck.

[philolsen]

How can you know a fish has ICH from a LFS? Qaurintine will tell eventually but if a fish needs to be kept in a seperate tank for a month, you will not be able to go back and return it after that amount of time and it may have cost a substantial amount of money. Also, I have been reading on UV's and all the info states it does kill the parasites the cause ICH by breaking down the DNA with the UV rays, it would do the same to humans if it were on a larger scale, it does not remove it from infected fish but the info states it will remove the water bourne parasites in the tank. Not debating your statments just looking for as much info as I can. The next question is, all the treatments I found including copper state not to use a skimmer while treating, but by moving several fish into a small tank the water conditions and stress will both degrade quickly..no?

[leebca]

Originally Posted by philolsen

How can you know a fish has ICH from a LFS?

If the LFS is running a single system, look at all the fish in the system. Just stand there and be patient. Any fish breathing too fast? Any flashing? Any with spots? Any acting strange? Ask the LFS if he puts copper or any kind of disease treatment medications into his system. Ask why.

The bottom line is that LFSs usually don't offer guarantees once the fish leaves the store. One of the reasons is just because of these diseases that takes time to 'show.' Unless you have some other arrangement with the LFS, you are buying all fish 'as is.' That is, you don't know unless you see at least one fish in the system with the symptoms. So, I don't see this issue of returning a fish as a problem. It isn't offered to the buyer to do this. Some LFSs will allow you to have them hold a fish for you up to three weeks or so. Don't think for a minute that this is a 'quarantine' of any kind. The purpose of this is to be sure the fish acclimates and eats. At least you should be sure the fish you want to purchase is eating the proper foods. Often a sick fish will refuse food, but not always.

Originally Posted by philolsen

. . .the info states it (UV) will remove the water bourne parasites in the tank.

That's part of the 'careful wording of marketing experts.' It kills those water borne parasites that pass through the UV. Do you believe that all parasites will pass through the UV? They don't. If you understand the lifecycle of Marine Ich, it has a cyst stage. That white nodule you see on the fish comes off the fish (or not -- stay tuned) and goes into the substrate, clings to a rock, or hangs up in some detritus. There it 'hatches' and releases the free swimming parasites looking for host fish. The fish 'sleep' on the bottom of the tank right? They get infected. All this without the parasite going through the UV. I'm sure you don't believe that everything in the water goes through the UV, right? There's pods, microbes, tiny plants, tiny waste particles, algae, etc. clinging to the rocks and in the substrate and on the decorations. All this plus the parasites too, don't have to go through the UV and. . .they all don't. The claim, if you read closely, is that the parasites that pass through the UV are killed. But you can see the difference between that statement and, 'all parasites pass through the UV' right?

Now the kicker of them all. Some Marine Ich Theronts (the white 'pregnant' nodule on the fish that is seen) hatch right on the fish. Fortunately, not many. That is, they don't fall off, but hatch and release the free swimming parasites while right there on the fish. Host is nice and handy. No swimming at all. They don't even get water borne!

Originally Posted by philolsen

by moving several fish into a small tank the water conditions and stress will both degrade quickly..no?

This is why we quarantine, so that we don't have to do this. But to clean a contaminated tank and to save the fish, the aquarist now has to compensate. Use as many hospital tanks as needed. Sell them or give them aways as presents when you're done with them. Controlling water quality in the QT is not difficult when you set one up properly and have the knowledge, equipment, and patience it takes to do it properly. The literature is there to follow.

Just believe that once you do it right and quarantine everything from then on, you don't have to do this again and you'll be protecting your investment (money and emotional) in the long run.

[WillieM96]

Thanks Lee. That was a very clear explanation. I think I get it now. Time to break out the quarantine tank again!