My gosh.. brook after 7 months of QTing

[vaporize]

Hi LEE,

I know you covered multiple times on brook, so I am going to just verify my procedure with you.

This is a 20G QT barebottom, with 2 clay pots, 1 aquaclear 802 powerhead with a sponge filter. The clarkii clownfish have been in there since June 2006 and shows no symptoms of brook or other disease. So I almost thought these are the safest fish in all my systems being eating and living well for so long. The tank has been on hyposalinity at 1.015-1.018 for sometime, without much water change and only water top off (with paper cardboard covered to avoid too much evaporation).

All of a sudden today, when I go feed the fish today, they are not reactive to the food (usually they all come out of hiding and eat like pigs), they have been fed NLS pellets exclusively. So I take a closer look and noticed one fish have very obvious the skin mucus brook symptoms, the fins are also pretty much all torn and gone. So I seperated it from the rest of the 5 fish and put it into a breeder box with furan-2 antibiotics after FW dip (which it's gone shortly afterwards).

So for the rest of the 5 fish, I took them out for a FW dip for 15 minutes, and then follow by an hour formalin bath in some of the tank water. Only one or two fish actually have very minor mucus skin brook symptom, however they are all breathing very fast (but not swimming into current thou).

As for the QT, I measured the pH and found out it is very bad quality and pH=7.7 so that was very low. I replace 100% of the water with freshly made water pH=8.1, using the old powerhead filter. And have returned the fish back to the QT. I suspect that brook outbreak was caused by the poor water quality... but after 7 months is a bit unusual.

I am planning to do formalin bath for the next 3 days to complete the brook treatment.

Do you think this procedure is acceptable or anything I should change?

Thanks as always LEE & Happy Holidays

[leebca]

There may be a few concerns.

You have found the pH at the wrong setting (7.7) but you don't know whether the drop occured over a long time period, or suddenly, and for how long it was low. Right? I'm not trying to be critical, but if this is true, this not 'good enough' water management. You need to know the pH daily and make small daily corrections if necessary. One can wonder what other water quality things have been going on during the time they haven't been monitored.

pH control is very important to our fishes. What can do the most harm is a sudden pH change. When you found the low pH of 7.7 it should have been slowly raised, about 0.1 pH units per day until it was where it should be for this species (about 8.2). If the fish were in there when you made the very large water change, the sudden change in pH was really stressful to them. Some species would have died from this. Good general rule of thumb in this hobby -- make changes very slowly.

The condition may not be of Brooklynella origin. The low pH and water quality issues can create the responses in the fish you mentioned. Left long enough, infections can find a weakened fish and start affecting them.

You've indicated the fish are in QT. So, am I right to assume that what you mean by this, is that these two fish are in their own tank and their water is not shared with any other fishes?

I would not use a cardboard cover. Cardboard can have been chemically treated to bond the fibers. This could drip chemicals into the tank vis a vis condensate, spray, droplets, etc. from the cardboard cover. Cardboard is porous. Cardboard that has become moist can be a large reservoir of bacterial growth. The bacteria there must be having a real party, getting ready for the holidays! It is best to use a plastic cover. This cover can be cleaned and if necessary 'sterilized.'

I think you know my perspective about pellet foods -- they are not to be exclusively used for feeding. What are the listed ingredients?

Treatment for Brooklynella is the triple dips in a Formalin bath. But the treated fish must not be put back in with untreated fish or water that is coming from untreated fishes. Putting a treated fish back in the QT with a fish there that will be next treated is enough time to undoe the treatment on the first fish. They should be kept separate. I wouldn't risk treating them at the same time since your focus and attention should be on one container (and I would not put them both into the same bath at the same time, either). Each should be treated separated with a fresh bath.

Holidays

[vaporize]

pH control is very important to our fishes. What can do the most harm is a sudden pH change. When you found the low pH of 7.7 it should have been slowly raised, about 0.1 pH units per day until it was where it should be for this species (about 8.2). If the fish were in there when you made the very large water change, the sudden change in pH was really stressful to them. Some species would have died from this. Good general rule of thumb in this hobby -- make changes very slowly.

I admit that I have been really bad, because after the fish been staying in the QT for a long time, I kind of ignore them (since they are eating and shows no signs of disease and my ignorance on that they might get sick). I was under the impression that it is best to change out all the bacteria filled water & get them into proper clean water instead of changing their pH daily.

The condition may not be of Brooklynella origin. The low pH and water quality issues can create the responses in the fish you mentioned. Left long enough, infections can find a weakened fish and start affecting them.

I think you are right on this, there does not seem to have any improvements after formalin baths for both days. However after putting into new water with furan-2 in QT, they started eating a little bit today, yesterday only one fish was eating. So I am thinking of using furan-2 to kill the bacteria (after day 1)

You've indicated the fish are in QT. So, am I right to assume that what you mean by this, is that these two fish are in their own tank and their water is not shared with any other fishes?

Yes, this is an idependent 20G (filled up to 10G) with its own powerhead filter & heater, some clay pots for hiding.

I would not use a cardboard cover....

Removed and replaced with eggcrate

I think you know my perspective about pellet foods -- they are not to be exclusively used for feeding. What are the listed ingredients?

It is the New Life Spectrum Ther-A formula:

Main Ingredients: Krill, Herring, Wheat Flour, Garlic, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal- Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin.

Guaranteed Analysis: Protein 38% Min., Fat 7% Min., Fiber 5% Max., Ash 9% Max., Moisture 8% Max.

Treatment for Brooklynella is the triple dips in a Formalin bath. But the treated fish must not be put back in with untreated fish or water that is coming from untreated fishes. Putting a treated fish back in the QT with a fish there that will be next treated is enough time to undoe the treatment on the first fish. They should be kept separate. I wouldn't risk treating them at the same time since your focus and attention should be on one container (and I would not put them both into the same bath at the same time, either). Each should be treated separated with a fresh bath.

The fish that looked bad did not make it. However for the rest of the 5 fish, I put them all into a formalin bath together for 1 hr, and put it back into the same QT water, will this work? (there are no fish in the QT while they are in bath). Brook is cilicated organisms meaning they still swim around in water right?

Also, I read from some medication/literature to ask to use a low dosage of formalin in the QT water constantly for Brook, is that something you would endorse or oppose?

[leebca]

You're sort of working the project in reverse. Instead of waiting for fish to show signs of stress and disease and then fixing the water, you want constantly monitor the water to prevent the fish from getting into these kinds of conditions. Thus, you can expect more fish loss until you put things in order.

The third ingredient in the pellet food is wheat flour. How much wheat flour do you think wild marine fish eat? How much do they need? The fiber comes mostly from that type of ingredient. Fiber is not good for our marine fishes and should be kept to a bare minimum in their diet.

For the fish (each fish) to get the full effect of the Formalin bath it needs to go through it alone. Formalin is so tricky that if there are multiple fish present, one or more fish could be injured from the gas.

I don't recommend an ongoing use of Formalin. As mentioned above, it is tricky to control. It leaves the water, it changes characteristics with age (and become lethal), and it changes chemistry when the pH shifts. With your record of pH control, that would not be the way to go.

The best process is to have the QT with all the fish in it waiting for the bath. Setup another QT with fresh salt water with exactly the same parameters (temp, pH, sp. gr.). Setup the Formalin bath using the water they fish are currently in. After each fish is bathed, put it into the new water, not the original QT. Repeat this same process for the rest of the dips.

[vaporize]

The best process is to have the QT with all the fish in it waiting for the bath. Setup another QT with fresh salt water with exactly the same parameters (temp, pH, sp. gr.). Setup the Formalin bath using the water they fish are currently in. After each fish is bathed, put it into the new water, not the original QT. Repeat this same process for the rest of the dips.

Thank LEE, let me see if I get this right. So for my case, with 5 fish.

(1) Empty out the QT into 5 buckets and do formalin bath of each there (since we are discarding the QT water and use new water after the bath)
(2) Put them back int QT with all new water

Should I use antibiotics in there as this might have been bacterial in nature? Again, the fish are not showing other symptoms except fast breathing (no spot on body) and brook like skin is not improving either.

thanks

[leebca]

Let's see if I understand. Instead of two tanks you want to use one? That's okay.

Be sure to clean out and 'sterilize' the QT they will be going into, before the first fish gets there.

Should I use antibiotics in there as this might have been bacterial in nature?

I don't think so. The fast breathing wouldn't be a bacterial situation. If the fish is sluffing off mucous, then it is probably sluffing off mucous in the gills. This excess mucous in the gills is more than likely causing the fish breathing stress.

I think that part of the underlying issues may be the nutritional requirements of the fish are not being met. It's not easy, but marine Anemonefish need more than just pellet food. In fact, the Anemonefish should have algae (like that given to tangs) daily.

[vaporize]

Be sure to clean out and 'sterilize' the QT they will be going into, before the first fish gets there. I don't think so. The fast breathing wouldn't be a bacterial situation. If the fish is sluffing off mucous, then it is probably sluffing off mucous in the gills. This excess mucous in the gills is more than likely causing the fish breathing stress.

Would FW dip with methylene blue (or even putting mild methylene blue in QT) help with the breathing stress in this case? As nutritional issues will take some time to get addressed and corrected.

[leebca]

I don't think the MB will help in this type of scenario. When you might want to do is verify your QT has enough surface agitation to facilitate gas exchange and that the room the QT is in is well ventilated with fresh air. An air stone, putting some outside, clean, fresh air into the water would be optimal.

Lowering the specific gravity to about 1.016 to 1.018 will help them conserve energy. Do the lowering slowly. However, keep in mind that at the lower specific gravity, it will be even harder to control the pH. You'll need to measure the pH two or three times a day and adjust it when necessary, at this lower specific gravity.