[RokleM]

Let me start off with, I was recently sent this forum from a friend, and am amazed at the wealth of knowledge! I plan to do a lot of reading.

Quick stats for reference:

• Over a year in the hobby
• 58g, 4x39w T5, Tunze, Gobies, Percula Clowns, Royal Gramma, Sixline
• 180g, 2x400w HQI Ham14k/Radium, Tunze, Gobies, Sixline, Anthias, Black Ocellaris
• 100g sump, GEO skimmer,media,kalk,calcium, Sequence
• 50 gallon frag tank

All tied together.

My issue is currently with my black Ocellaris (England tank raised assumed via the mis-bar if my research is correct). I've had them for about four months, and received them from a clean reputable LFS. QT was fine, and shortly out of QT the male (1/2"-3/4 at the time) started to hide and was breathing very heavy. White poop was also seen. No food consumption witnessed. I managed to get him out of the tank into the hospital and hit him with 1x Maracyn-Two via recommendation. He was cured by the end, stayed there another week or two, then went back into the tank (180).

Over a month later, my female (1" when I got her, now almost 2") about 3 weeks back started the same symptoms, heavy breathing, white poop. I pulled them both out and am treating them together. They never leave each others side, and my assumption is that if one has something, it's likely the other has it or will have it.

I hit Maracyn-Two per directions (1x dose) in the hospital (10 gal, maxijet400, standard filter with only fiber and no carbon). Her breathing slowed a bit, but was still heavy. She refused to eat (normally practically jump out of the water). I waited six days, then tried Lifeguard based on some information supplied. Yesterday (day four of five) I witnessed new life in her, and she ate for the first time in 2-3 weeks that I've seen. Today (day 5 of 5), she's full of energy, her breathing is back to normal, and she's flirting/playing with her mate. She's running around the tank grabbing food.

However, not all is well. I've watched them very closely for any signs of ICH, damage, or other visible issues. Today, she had a very apparent injury on her side (pictures below). Shortly after this picture as I ran to process it, my wife was downstairs watching, and stated it "fell off". I see a little mark on her side.

I feed her again, and she's still eating and acting more normal than ever.

Can anyone ID it? Is it a parasite "busting out"? Is it internal damage caused by whatever is impacting her? Organs coming out? Other than continuing to nurse them both in QT, is there anything I can do to save her? Any treatments beyond the standard garlic, selcom, etc in their food? My fish get a rotation of Rod's Food, Mysis, Cylopeeze, Flake, and Zooplakton. Mysis and Flake are dosed with the standard vitamins every time.

I just completed a 75% water change and have added carbon to the hospital.

Hopefully someone has suggestions. They're my favorite fish of all of them, and of course they're the ones with issues I will read through this forum for ideas, but thought I would post quick to see if anyone had immediate input.

The male continues to be in fine shape.






Their home (of course they avoid the anemone on the right side like the plague ) The female clown actually rules the house, and demands the 3-4" Male Anthias's respect.

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

Sorry it was these troubles that got you to visit here. As you mentioned, there are some really good posts you may want to look into. . .some of the sticky, some not.

You mentioned the color of the fecal matter, but not the 'consistency.' Was it a solid string, chunky or totally particulate matter (like a crop duster)?

There was no doubt an internal disorder is going on. Although Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes (if that's the one you used) is a good antibiotic, it would not kill internal parasites. It could have helped the fish fend off secondary infections which gave them the edge to survive the internal issue.

First things first:
1. When you treat with Maracyn Two, you use twice the dose recommended on the package when the fish are in water of normal salinity.
2. Anemonefish are omnivores. The diet you're giving them doesn't contain enough vegetable matter. Review my post here in this Forum:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
3. Garlic is of little help. Read this: Garlic
4. Clean reliable LFS is a bit of an oxymoron. These are sick fish. Source of where they got sick is a bit of an unknown I admit, but no LFS can prevent fishes from sharing their afflictions very effectively.
5. Always deworm your fish. See: Strange Excrement from Fish -or- How to be a Super Pooper Snooper
6. Always give new Anemonefish a treatment for Brooklynella.
7. Mysis is not the preferred pod to feed; find and feed Mysids (saltwater pods).
8. Selcon is not a vitamin supplement. It's a fat supplement. I hope that isn't what you mean when you mentioned you put in vitamin additives.

I don't want to be completely negative here. Your aquarium looks very nice. You have done several things quite well. First, congrats on using a quarantine system. Very intelligent of you. I'd modify your quarantine process however to provide a freshwater dip, de-worming, and for Anemonefish a Brooklynella treatment. From the sound of things, you're caring well for your marine fishes. Unfortunately you're getting some less-than-optimum advice.

As I mentioned, this is an internal matter that's gone on much too long. You (+ fish) are extremely lucky the fish are alive and still eating.

Watch their breathing. If their breathing looks labored again, lower the specific gravity of the QT slowly to between 1.014 and 1.016 and hold it there until they recover.

Since they're eating, I suggest you attack any intestinal parasites first. You need a one-two punch or a broad spectrum medication. I would treat with both Metrodinazole, and Praziquantel (together, at the same time). This is added to the food which is the best way to get at the intestinal parasites. See the above post. There are meds that combine the two. Read labels carefully for ingredient list and follow the instructions on the med.

The above will take care of the intestinal problems. If these 'invaders' are abdominal in nature, they will be harder to attack. Let's focus on intestinal first. There is no way I can identify or diagnose the culprit(s) from the photo. Sorry. In my home lab I could do more, but. . .

As soon as you can, improve their nutritional source (see above post). I would also encourage the use of immune boosters during this time period until they have recovered. This is info on that: Fish Immune Boosters

Do the above treatment. Keep me informed of progress and what their fecal matter looks like (color AND consistency). Ask if you have questions or concerns. Good luck!

[RokleM]

Thanks for the reply! Let me add/clarify a few things before I follow up with the recommended reading/research.

The poop was white, stringing, and "stuck around" for a little while

The food rotation is not exactly as stated, just a list. Mysis is twice a week (Anemone loves it), small dose of cycloppeze is daily (Anthias), Flake is every other day, and once or so a week are Rod's and Zooplankton. They also peck (never heard of this) at my algae leaf that I supply my tang.

I also forgot to mention, I used gel-tek (Praziquantel, Flubenol, Metronidazole) very lightly and briefly during the Maracyn-Two dose. She was not eating however, so I did not push the issue. Since yesterday as I see her feeding, I stepped this up heavy and will soak their flake heavy for a few days. She was normal one day, and almost in a coma the next. This made the gel-tek I had almost impossible to use based on food consumption.

Understand completely about LFS, however some do perform better precautions and QT unlike most. Agreed.

"Vitamin" was a misstatement, I did indeed mean supplement. However, Vita-Chem and Zoe are included in my dosing list.

Most of your QT/deworming/Brooklynella info is indeed in contrary to much that I have read, so I look forward to reading the additional posts and support information.

When fish go to my hospital, then immediately get a lowered salinity to .020 over the matter of a few days to assist in stress relief.

I will follow your recommended reading, and see what the next steps are. Thank you again for your time and effort on behalf of everyone.

[leebca]

I didn't feel any 'sense of urgency' to reply, so I have not done so, until now.

The fecal matter implies an intestinal worm or parasite. Go forward as you plan and give full treatment with the two de-wormers.

They will peck at the algae because they are omnivores. You want to feed them now and then other so-called 'herbivore foods' which are really more for omnivores (these days). My reference will provide other ideas on that. Again, I'm just glad they are eating!

Regarding LFS quarantine. I have never found an LFS in my travels that actually performs a proper quarantine -- the fish is held isolated for 6 weeks; no other fish or water from other fishes are mixed with the fish in quarantine during this entire time; and the fish is trained to eat and cleared of all malady. It's the 6 weeks bit. It isn't good business to spend that time on a 'perishable product.' Fish are a commodity. The LFS will most likely go out of business (either no longer competitive with other LFSs and online sales, or too much money going into fish care) if they implement a true quarantine process. Having been an LFS myself many years ago (see: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)) I can appreciate the economy of the situation -- spend $5.+ holding a fish that cost $4. or sell it ASAP.

Most LFSs have discovered the best thing to do is just have two systems in their shop. One for fishes which will constantly contain copper, formalin or other medicines; the other without meds for the invertebrates, corals, etc.

Vita Chem and Zoe are good choices.

If you have any concerns or questions about my recommended QT/FW dipping/Treatments of newly acquired fishes, just ask. I have probably provided much more detail than most who give recommendations. You'll find Steven Pro (a professional aquarist running his own in-home/in-office service) uses the same basic approaches, just slightly different details. For comparison, see his article: An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com. Steven has given lectures at conventions following these procedures.

You're welcome!

[RokleM]

Good timing, I was just getting ready to post an update.

The wound on her side was "empty" (little black/red dot) most of the night and today, but I see a little white material coming out currently. I will attempt to get a better picture although from your description I'm not sure if it would help. If it wasn't for this, I would be under the assumption she is perfectly fine if I didn't know any better. 100% normal behavior for her just like she was before this issue.

Both of them sucked up a good amount of flake laced heavy with Gel-Tek Ultra Cure PX again tonight. I can't seem to get the Gel-Tek to stay in a "ball" and drop down under the surface, so I can't directly force them to eat that. When you mentioned the de-wormers, you mean to continue Gel-Tek and start a 2x recommended dose for Maracyn-Two, or just the Gel-Tek containing the two important agents?

Thanks again. I didn't have a ton of time to read last night as it was late, but am continuing now I will indeed have some follow up questions to some of your standard suggestions for feeding, qt, etc, but I will approach those later.

[leebca]

There have been several reports of having the same experience with Gel-Tek. Adding it to the food should suffice just as long as you think they are getting the recommended quantity.

I would not treat with Maracyn or any other antibiotic at this time. I'd let the de-wormers (Metrodinazole and Praziquantel = Gel-Tek) do their job first. By de-wormers I meant the two prime ingredients in Gel-Tek.

What is of importance is whether or not the 'white material' may be alive.

Monitor their fecal matter and note any changes that occur.

[RokleM]

I was not able to get a clearer shot unfortunately. However, in the last 24 hours I have not seen any white stringy fecal matter. I will continue this for 2-3 more days, and keep a close eye on them as always.

[leebca]

[RokleM]

Looking good still. No signs of breathing issues, agile awake and responsive, eating well, and no fecal matter seen. Even better, I don't see anything coming out of her side, and it "almost" looks like it's healing although it's hard to get a good look.

[leebca]

I was hoping that the 'white' you saw was flesh coming into the area for healing. A properly nourished fish can heal itself quite well. Still, keep the antibiotic handy.

[RokleM]

Let me give an update and get your thoughts.

The wound is 100% healed. Activity, breathing, alertness, willingness to eat, etc are all normal for both. My treatment of the Gel-Tek is complete. They readily eat food soaked in it, as well as directly eating a drop a couple of times.

Two days ago I saw some some stringy matter that "hung on" for an extended period. I do plan to keep them in QT for at least another four weeks at minimum to ensure no signs come back.

My main question is, since I've seen stringy fecal matter recently, is there a suggestion in case it comes back? Obviously the Gel-Tek is kind of hit or miss, depending on how much was in the food they ate, or how readily they accept the drops. Should I get a water bound Praziquantel treatment (like PraziPro or let me know if another is recommended) and Metronizazole (I've seen water bound tablets, but any recommendations here as well)?

Any other treatments or suggestions at this time? Wait 5 days and hit them with Gel-Tek again just as a precaution?

[leebca]

You came to the correct conclusion at the end!

Repeat the treatment 5 or 6 days after the previous treatment stopped.

The water treatment is nowhere near as effective as the oral administering. But if that is the way you want to go, it is okay, after the second oral treatment.