[Tourkid]

Hey Lebeca! Long time no chat. I love what you've done to this forum it looks great!! I read stickes dor a few hours!!
Im hoping you can lend me your advice for this wrasse i cant seem to help it.

Ive had it for 14 days. It is in a 10 gallon qt with a dottyback that was bought the same day. Its equiped with a aquaclear 10 with a lil biofilter sponge from the main tank, a heater and a plastic cave.

when i brought them home they both had a light ick problem. 2 days after i bought them the ick seemed really bad and the attitude in the wrasse had clearly changed, kinda lethargic and not swimming much. I decided to use copper from instant ocean. I had a test kit that was supposed to work with it. and had one being sent that should have arrived the next day (never did arrive...)

I dosed the copper as bottle had said, 1 drop per gallon. I used 9 drops instead of ten.

IMMEDIATE problems. I basicly almost killed them both. breathing heavy, not moving or eatting, then not breathing barely at all. I oviously overdosed. I added a ton of carbon, did a 75% water change added an air stone and turned the lights out.

a few hours later the dotty was completely normal agian eatting swimming etc. it took the wrasse about 23 hours to recover. In those 24 hours i decided to try the medication 'life gaurd' I thought they were gonners and figured it couldent hurt. it says its for ick, flukes, bacterial and fungal.

I finished the 5 days treatment of this, and by that time everything was peachy. I started lowering the salinity while treating the meds and finally got it to 1.012 January 3rd. (measured with a refractometer)

well everythings been fine with the fish, hypo has been steady, and i do a 1 gallon water change every other day.

well yesterday she started strange behavior all over agian. when the light turned on all was normal, i fed them two-three flakes and left. two hours later is feeding time and i went over to give them some mysis/emerald entree mix and the wrasse was laying in the corner almost sideways barel=y breathing and wouldent eat. temp was stable, salinity was the same. i tested ph, ammonia and nitrate.

ph- 8.0
ammonia-0
nitrate - 2.0
all salifert

I dosed the tank with 2 maracyn 2 pellets.

no change at all today. still not eatting. i dosed the tank with 1 maracyn 2 pellet and left the lights off.

the dotty is eatting and behaving normally. the wrasse isent moving much unless startled, breathing very lightly.
the airstone is still in the tank. but i dont see her making it, she seems so weak and fragile.

I thought id give this a shot as Im stumped at this point. i know ive definately made mistakes with this qt process and have done to many changes to fast, but im at a loss at this point. poop looks fine, i suck it out every day.. i cant think of anything else

should i continue the maracyn? am i missing somthing?

as always, your advice is very much appricated!!

thanks
Maggie

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND Maggie!

Good to see you here.

I think you've done a lot for the fish. As you've indicated, there's a few blips in the handling. I'd like to point out -- there is a fish with an unknown condition, but two fish are together. If the wrasse is afflicted with something, so is the other fish. This is a very important reason to not put fish together during a quarantine.

Sometimes one fish brings with it something that the other fish can't defend against until it's stronger and stress-free or nearly so. Another reason not to put fishes together in the quarantine.

Now that we're past that Some fish don't recover from a poisoning; some have a delayed reaction to the poisoning; some build up with the poison that may remain in the tank. The copper addition seemed to be the poison in this case.

The lowering of salinity in the presence of copper magnifies its affects. Although you've done the carbon and water changes, are you sure your Copper Test Kit shows no detectable copper? Unfortunately, even if a 0 ppm may come up on the test results, the fact is that once copper is put into an aquarium, it attachés itself to the aquarium walls, bottom, etc. and doesn't 'go away' without special cleaning. So there is still some copper present even if your kit doesn't measure it.

I'd separate the two fish, taking the ill looking one out of that tank you used for the copper treatment and put it into a tank, all by itself, that's never been used for a copper treatment. In that tank, keep the salinity low and at the parameters of the tank it is coming out of.

I don't see any evidence or need for an antibiotic treatment. In a hyposalinity situation, the antibiotic treatment is magnified significantly. Essentially Maggie, medicine additions to a tank in hyposalinity isn't done without the expressed written approval by the medicine manufacturer. Medicines act differently in hyposalinity.

The above is all I'd suggest, along with praying the fish comes out of this. There are no 'antidotes' yet!

In the future, only use Cupramine for a copper treatment on sensitive fishes like these. The first addition of copper is at half the concentration so the fish can make some adjustments to the presence of copper. If you haven't come across it yet, you might want to read: Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

[Tourkid]

update and hopefully a bit more advice.

Ive since ran 2 bags of copper to clear out the maracyn yellows and i did a 50% water change matching salinity/temp. ph nitrtate and ammonia are same today.

So heres what im seeing for the past two days

8am- light comes on, wrasse darts out of cave after a minute or two, i toss 2-3 flakes she seems to like in there and she eats them rapidly, appears good.

within 20 minutes, she go's to the corner in the front of the tank and sits on her stomach, upright, against the glass

lunchtime, 10am, i put a tiny bit of strained frozen food (with garlic and selcon) in the tank... she cant seem to swim at this point, and scoots along the bottom catching 2-3 mysis, wanting to eat really bad but cant swim well or has no energy.. she may do one quick dart/swim to a piece then is still.

I turn off the light for the rest of the day and they only get light from the reef in the next room.

dinner time 6pm.. no interest in eatting at all, might look up for a second, but doesent bother with anything

this is about the same routine for two days now. breathing appears normal.

I have not seperated the fish. Ill need a whole new system, cheaper than the fish i know so im trying to work out the funds.

should i slowly over this week raise the salinity to 1.023 or so? could this be doing more harm than good leaveing it at 1.012?

I have to assume it is definately copper poisoning along with stressed condtions. Theres gotta be somthing i can do to at least try though. i cant see her getting better at this point, only worse (?)

does copper poisoning where off? big water changes daily? If copper is still in the tank could i run new carbon daily to help it?

thanks for taking the time to read this

Maggie

[leebca]

Almost all the copper removing media only gets copper down to a certain level and no less. About the best you can achieve in this regards is to change out/put new activated carbon in every 6 days.

Copper poisoning can be overcome but by only the most resilient of fishes and then, depending upon how much copper got to the fish.

Keep the lighting low. When you did the Maracyn treatment, were the lights kept off or dimmed as per the medication instructions? At least that's when I remember from past Maracyn instructions.

Large water changes done carefully (matching pH, salinity, and temperature exactly) are almost always the best remedy. Doing this will help a little.

Is the low salinity for the Marine Ich treatment? If you raise it, thinking to help the fish in trouble, you're stopping the treatment on the other fish. Raising the specific gravity 1.014 to 1.016 would be an advisable compromise. Or, if you want to stop the Marine Ich treatment, then slowly raise the specific gravity to about 1.022 to 1.024.

In general, a lower specific gravity is more beneficial for a fish 'in trouble' then a 'normal' specific gravity. When it comes to poisoning, I'm unsure how important the specific gravity is on the recovery. If you see no improvement in another two days, I would raise the specific gravity back to the normal range (over a 4 or 5-day period) and if necessary, treat later for Marine Ich.

[Tourkid]

well ive been raising the salinity really slowly. But im not seeing any changes at all.

I want to read about/know about swim blatter disease...

Im not sure what would have caused it, but this fish really doesent seem to be able to swim. she eats whatever i can get close to its mouth.

it retreats into the cave when the lights are off and i hung out the last two days at this time to see exactly what happens.. she literally drags her belly across the bottom of the tank.
I have not seen any normal swimming from her at all. she eats, breaths normal, no weird skin issues.

this copper poison thing gets me because 23 hours after i added the cxopper, freaked out, waterchanged and carboned she was completely normal for days. then its been this weird no swimming thing ever since.

Is swim bladder cureable? How long should I let this wrasse continue this behavior? If i see no changes what so ever... a month? It doesent seem to be suffering, but she certainly isent the fish she used to be. Ive never had to put down a fish... Im not really willing to give up.. theres gotta be somthing im not doing yet...


side note... dottyback is still completely normal as a dotty can be.. there still sorta in hypo.. i wouldent be able to see ick even if i tried with the lights being off 24/7 now. all poop found has looked normal.

[leebca]

Usually, when there is a swim bladder infection the fish is unable to remain upright. I was looking in your posts for any signs of this behavior, but can't find any.

Some swim bladder conditions can be relieved by a veterinarian through surgery. It isn't something that an aquarist does on the fish.

I don't think it's a swim bladder infection, but you can treat the fish as if it had one, if you want. I'd say you have a small chance of success, but small is better than none.

The antibiotic TETRACYCLINE when fed to the fish is the most direct means of curing a bladder infection. To be honest, other antibiotics don't do that well. The down side is that this drug is not particularly easy to come by. The reason being is that this drug is mostly used to treat freshwater fishes. In saltwater, at normal saltwater pH ranges, this drug is not stable and effective. So by 'not. . .easy to come by' I mean not easy to find the saltwater formulation of it.

Try to find the saltwater formulation for Tetracycline. As a last resort, use the freshwater formula as a food additive.

If you choose to use this, then I would have an air stone running in the aquarium to assure proper and adequate aeration. Watch and maintain the pH properly.

With regards to euthanasia -- I have been an advocate of it quite often. I have a personal belief that if any animal cannot enjoy a regular quality of life, then this should be considered. Where to draw the line is a personal choice. I have used the line of: if the fish isn't curable; if the fish requires a lot of special attention to get it to feed; if the fish has certain infections that are 'deadly' to other fish or humans; if the fish could not ever be released into a community tank where another fish of the same species would be expected to do well; etc.

The only proper and humane way to put down a fish is an overdose of anesthetic. The fish goes to sleep. . .permanently. For aquarists, the most readily available and least expensive of these is Clove Oil. It is often found in health food stores. Please don't even consider freezing or bashing its head in.

[Tourkid]

just updating...

I decided to quit doing so many water changes, and just focus on raising salinity. taking 4 cups out of the qt and adding 4 cups of reef tank water 2 times a day.

weird thing was, after each time i did this I swear i noticed improvement everytime. she would flash, or wiggle a lil at first. more and more.. well lastnight she started swimming about in small bursts, i added food to the tank, and off she went gobbling up everything and swimming all over.

I changed out another 4 cups this morning, and decided to turn the light back on (incandecent, not to strong)

I came home 2 hours later and shes practically normal. she hasent 'rested' in her spot at all, but rather is swimming about, like she used too all day. I added theyre food and she gobbled a bunch agian.

I really wanted to mention this because maybe, just maybe after a copper posioning, hyposalinity is NOT a good thing to do!!

Let me go back.

1- posioned them. water changed, carbon
2- 23 hours later, vast improvment, thought everything was ok
3- lowered salininty over 5 days.. by 4th & 5th day, almost dead, barely breathing, not eatting unless aimed at her mouth, no swimming
4- no signs of improvemment at all no matter what is tried
5- raiseing salinity (im at 1.017 at the moment)
after reaching 1.015 vast improvments almost immediately.

im not one to experiment just for fun esp. posioning my fish for an experiment, but it would SEEM just from this experience that for future referance, no lowering salinity after a copper scare

*really happy i wont be buying clove oil anytime soon*

and thanks for that advice too. ive never had to think about it, but i thought the freezer was the right way to go about it. Ill make sure to remember clove oil if the topic ever comes up

thanks agian!

oh... heres my girl

[leebca]

I wouldn't come to the conclusion about the copper and salinity. Some fish just don't do well with hyposalinity.

Anyway, I'm very happy the fish is 'out of the frying pan.'

[Tourkid]

just an update

The wrasse and the dotty have been in my reef tank for 4 days now.

the higher the salinity got, the better the wrasse did. I got it back to 1.025, waited and waited and never saw a spec of ick. Dont know if i killed them dead during my copper fiasco, or if i was imagining things in the first place. but i swear there was ick....

well, both fish have adapted extreamely well, eating everything i offer, and the wrasse eats from my hands

I really enjoy the qt process in a way, i feel like the fish get to know you, and what your there, get used to my hands etc before getting tossed into a reef.

well just wanted to say thanks agian
looks like the familys only a short few weeks away before getting moved into theyre new 90 gallon home. getting pretty excited

[leebca]

Thanks for the update.

I wish more hobbyists would come to the same conclusion about the quarantine process. It isn't just to make sure the fish is healthy, it is a means to train and acclimate the fish to its new owner, new foods, and new environment.