[vaporize]

My gosh, this is my 2nd time that I 'probably' kill my fish with FW dip on a healthy fish. First time an archillies tang and this time just a normal black saddleback clownfish.

I just can't seem to get this procedure correctly or something wrong with my procedure. First time my archillies tang was in FW dip for 15 minutes and it does not too good, so I put it into a QT and died over the night.

Tonight I just dip the clownfish into the FW dip for 30 minutes, and it was swimmign all along until last time I checked her on 25 min mark and it is swimming around. Then just at 30 min or so when I was almost ready to take her out, she tried to jump out, so I take her out and bring her into the formalin bath I prepared but she's almost lay there motionless, so I decided to skip the formalin bath (she's not making it there) and moved her into the QT. Now she's in the QT breathing very fast (not sure if she'll make thru the night, I just covered the tank to keep her in the dark to lower stress and 1.018 salinity to help with breathing).

Both times, I use baking soda to make the water into 8.2 before letting them in there. Now thinking about it, i wonder if the fish store is keeping it at 7.9 or lower and they were suffering from pH shock.

It really scares me these days to use FW dip on newly arrival fish. Since I am dealing mainly with clownfish, I modified the arrival quarantine procedure to:
(1) Add methylene blue to the fish bag, and keep it around the same temperature. Let them sit in that solution for 30 minutes
(2) Put them into Formalin bath in about 1-2 G of water in a bucket (with heater, air stone etc.. )
(3) Put them into QT for observations
I know this procedures might not kill the parasites such as flukes and such but seems to have a bit less stress on the QT fish (and lucky nothing dies from it unlike the scary FW dip).

Please feel free to comment on what I might go wrong. I would think that it is the pH difference, but if I put fish from bag --> formalin bath, it would still ahve the same shock (if it is 7.9 -> 8.2/3) because formalin bath uses QT water that is full strength.

[leebca]

How are you acclimating the fish? It isn't clear to me what procedure you're using.

The process should be:
Receive fish in bag
Acclimate fish while it is in the bag to QT water (It Was Acclimation, I know. . .)
FW dip
QT (for a few days)
Formalin Dips
De-worming
Observation in QT 6+ total weeks

I don't see the "Acclimate fish while it is in the bag" part in the process you listed.

[vaporize]

Thanks Lee,

I forgot that step. But I am wondering if that step will make such a big difference (in terms of reaction from the fish).

Scenario 1: Considered that from my modified process of
(1) fish bag + met.blue -> (2) QT water formalin bath

Scenario 2: As suppose to my missing step
(1) fish bag -> (2) pH 8.2 FW dip

Since in both steps, at the -> it should be where the pH jump is, I do not see as a big reaction when scenario 1 that the clownfish is being put in the formalin bath; however there was a much bigger reaction when it is being put in scenario 2.

I guess I found out that my LFS always pretty much have their pH set at 7.7-7.9 since new fish comes in all the times and they drop the pH. Have an aqua medic controller sitting there so I saw it.

[leebca]

The fish must have a slow acclimation to the final pH it is expected to live in (the QT pH). A pH 'jump' of 0.1 is enough to kill some species. Acclimation to pH, temperature and specific gravity is essential (in that order).

What you're witnessing is pH shock (at various levels).

[leebca]

The -> phase should have 0 pH change; no jump.

It is
Fish bag + acclimation to pH, temp, & sp. gravity -> dip of same pH and temperature -> QT of same pH, temperature, and salinity.

[RHINO13]

Lee, correct me if im wrong. I think in the case of the vaporise's clownfish,I think you should reiterate

The process should be:
Receive fish in bag
Acclimate fish while it is in the bag to QT water (It Was Acclimation, I know. . .)
FW dip
QT (for a few days)
Formalin Dips
De-worming
Observation in QT 6+ total weeks

that the formalin dips are supposed to "start" a few days after the freshwater dip and after a few days in QT.

I have read your stickys on Quarantine and freshwater dips about 10+ times Lee. Because I'm soon to purchase my first fish($40 Onyx clown) Like vaporize I to dread this and I haven't even done it yet.

Lee do you think I should start with a hardier fish or an easier one to find? I only have a 46 gal tank so I am limited.

[leebca]

Ryan,

I will.

The Formalin sequential dips are to start after the fish has been in quarantine for a few days. It is too hard on the fish to go from the FW dip into its first Formalin bath. The Formalin bath parameters is based upon the QT water nd actual water from the QT should be used for the Formalin bath. Let the fish acclimate to the QT a few days before attempting the Formalin bath.

Unfortunately, a lot can go wrong in the Formalin bath. Controlling everything (temperature, air, pH, etc.) is essential. Even the use of old Formalin is dangerous, since it decomposes on the shelf, turning into poison to the fish.

You may wish to practice the whole sequence before performing it on a valuable pet. If you're dealing with an LFS, maybe you can agree with the LFS that you can return the fish in a few weeks after you get it for a % credit.

Will you be acquiring the fish from an LFS? If mail order, be sure the bag water pH is truly very close to the pH of the QT and FW dip water.

The single most common mistake in this process is obtaining a fish that has been in its bag for many hours and not paying close attention to pH. pH is so important for long-term bagged fish that, after I dump half the bag out and begin the next round of QT water additions, I begin to monitor the pH with a portable pH meter and if necessary, add a drop (or more) of pH+ to the bag water to help it get to the right pH slowly.

On Wednesday of this week, I just 'processed' $500. worth of fish -- delicate Red Sea Butterflyfishes, and a Red Sea Emperor Angelfish. All are adjusting to their QT now and appear healthy. They came in from overseas and the pH of one bag water was 6.6 to start with!

Thanks for reading my posts! I try to be thorough but I'm not perfect. If there is anything unclear or you have questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'm here to help!

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,
Just wondering about the bag ph you mentioned (6.6!) Does this mean that the pH in the recieving QT should be no higher than 6.7?
I'm asking because whenever I get mail order fish they arrive with low pH...

[leebca]

If you read my posts on acclimation, you'll note that 6.6/6.7 is too low for the fish. All received fish must be put into a pH of no less than 7.8

What I have done is lower the QT pH to 7.8 and then raise the bag pH to 7.7 to 7.8. I make the FW bath 7.8.

I fill the bag, making small additions of QT water according to the acclimation procedure. After dumping out half of that water, I begin to slowly force the pH up such that, but the time the bag is full for the second time, the pH is 7.7 to 7.8 or within 0.1 pH units below the final QT pH.

Also like I wrote in the acclimation guide. . .the use of additives to the bag is particularly useful for fishes that have been in the bag for a long time. These additives absorb the 'evil' and 'safe' ammonia so that when the pH goes up, no 'evil' ammonia is re-released from 'safe' ammonia, into the bag water.

The immediate and ultimate goal is to get the fish into the proper pH water ASAP.

In the instance I mentioned in the previous post, when I got the bag water to 7.5 I noticed a significant improvement in the fish health. It began to act more 'natural' and aware of its surroundings when before, it was more in a state of catatonic shock. It may still expire, but this morning it was still alive and if it is possible - a bit frisky.

Now I'm raising the QT pH slowly up to 8.4 over the next four days.

[vaporize]

Lee,

Just an update on the FW dip procedure I performed tonight and wondering if you can comment on the problem I observed.

(1) I used RODI water (that has been in room temperature for a day)
(2) Heat up some of the water iin microwave to make the solution into QT temperature
(3) Add air stone to aerate the water
(4) Add sodium bicarbonate to raise pH to match QT
(5) Let it sit for 5 minutes (to allow oxygen to be added), measure QT pH and FW dip PH and make sure they match
(6) remove fish from QT (fish has been in QT at 1.015 salinity, 10G tank, sponge filter & pot)
(7) put fish into FW dip tub and observe, add methylene blue so water turns a bit lighter than royal blue
(8) observe fish, it was swimming around a bit in the beginner , probably scare and after 10 minutes, it starts to slows down breathing a bit
(9) check on it every 5 minutes, then at the end fish start to not swim alot but not lying sideways, it sits at the bottom, so I decided to remove it at around 25 minutes
(10) When I put it back into QT, I noticed that its skin has been white (looks like it lose the slime coat, or brook like). However before FW dipping the fish, it does not have any physical symptoms except faster than normal breathing.
(11) After put back into QT, the fish exhibit stress and lie on the bottom breathing and is not very responsive.

I wonder if there are anything I missed on the FW dip step? pH & temperature was matched exactly. The fish has not been eating for 4 days, behaviour is normal except an little bit of a fast breathing (however not to the point of a brook/MV/ich type of fast breathing speed - I kinda recognise the breathing speed after seeing those more than enough times).

p.s. Also changed 50% of the QT water during the fish in dip to dilute possible contaminant and raise salinity (since you mentioned that it is not good to put them in lower salinity for no reason). pH difference is 0.1 between original QT water and new QT water.

thanks for any suggestions

[leebca]

Hi!

(3) Who advised to use an air stone? The use of an air stone changes the water by adding gases to it too quickly. It can and sometimes does alter the pH. Do not aerate the water.

(7) Don't add the MB to the water while the fish is in it. The MB is added to the FW dip water at the time you are adjusting the pH. The addition of any chemical to a small quantity of water the fish is already in, can have real negative effects on the fish.

(7) The addition of MB is not a 'color match' addition. It is a specific amount to raise the concentration of MB to a specific amount. Directions are clearly given as to the exact quantity that is to be used.

(8) Normal.

(9) It appears to be the result of the dip. Either the dip is wrong or there is something else(s) that are wrong. Until the dip is clearly performed as recommended, we can't eliminate the dip procedure being in question.

(10) and (11) The process has indeed had a negative impact upon the fish.

I'm unsure why you deviate from the advised process. The reaction simply could be that the FW dip directions weren't properly followed.

The next time you perform this procedure, go back to the recommendations. Then, if the fish has the same or similar reaction, let me know:
pH
Temperature
Observations (like in (8) thru (11))
Specific Gravity
What you are using for MB
What the TDS is of the RO/DI water (and consider for the next process, using distilled water)

I'd also like to know how you are measuring: pH, temperature and Specific Gravity in the QT and pH and temperature in the FW.

I appreciate it that you 'think outside the box.' In many areas of life this is of great value. However, innovating procedures that have been successfully used for decades on ornamental fishes, without a thorough knowledge and understanding of the impact it will have can have many negative results. Be conservative and it will pay off!

[anthias]

I m realy sorry for the fish ,
I want to aske about 2 things :
1-did you note the whiteness at the fish skin after you return it to the QT or it happend in the FWdip?
2- are you sure of your ph test results ,is it accurate?
If the problem happend after the return to the QT then the cause would be the 50% change you have done to it.
it happend with me one time I change 20 % of water for a maroon clown with new water, the clown then showed this whiteness and died in the next day,the clown was in good health befor I do the change and it was in the QT for 2 weeks but at that time I didnt have the PH test device but now I have a very good one and I m doing the MB FW dip with no problems at all and the fishes seams to injoy it.

[RHINO13]

Hello guys, Sorry to interrupt.

I was just wondering what you guys use to monitor temp.

I have those little digital ones that has a probe you stick in the water. The reason I ask is that they say they are +/- 1 degree.

Are the analog ones that float or anything else better as far as accuracy?

[leebca]

Almost any will do, so long as enough time is given for the temperature to be taken.

I use a field pH meter by Hanna and it includes a temperature reading at the same time I get the pH reading. I get the temperature in 0.1F units.

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

Hi!
(3) Who advised to use an air stone? The use of an air stone changes the water by adding gases to it too quickly. It can and sometimes does alter the pH. Do not aerate the water.

I was thinking that in a little volumne of water, the oxygen dissovled might not last 30 minutes or so. (just thinking of that from doing a formalin bath)

Originally Posted by leebca

(7) Don't add the MB to the water while the fish is in it. The MB is added to the FW dip water at the time you are adjusting the pH. The addition of any chemical to a small quantity of water the fish is already in, can have real negative effects on the fish.

Understood, and I think this might be a bad thing too for adding methylene blue to the LFS transportation water too.

Originally Posted by leebca

What you are using for MB
What the TDS is of the RO/DI water (and consider for the next process, using distilled water)

I am using Kordon's MB solution
Why should distilled water be used instead of RODI? Is it because of the more ion-hungry nature of RODI water? How about RODI water that sit with agraonite overnight (that is used for top off water to avoid alkalinity swing in a reef tank).

Originally Posted by leebca

I'd also like to know how you are measuring: pH, temperature and Specific Gravity in the QT and pH and temperature in the FW.

pH is measured by using hand-held Mauwakkee meter, I checked various tanks and the readings within the same tank seems to be consistent. However I remembered you were saying in another thread, it might be hard to measure pH of RODI water as the water itself is ion-less, making the electronic equipment to show incorrect readings; I was under the impression that only when sodium bicarbonate is added, then reading might be correct. However only very little sodium bicarbonate was required to raise the pH to the QT pH, is this little amount enough for electronic pH meter to work?

temperature was measrued by those coralife electronic thermometer

salinity is measured by refractometer

Thanks again for all the help Lee, guess FW dip is really not as simple in comparison to other treatment options.

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by anthias

1-did you note the whiteness at the fish skin after you return it to the QT or it happend in the FWdip?

I do not know if it has the whiteness in the FW dip as you might know from the procedure, there is methylene blue in the FW dip, so can't see anything clearly until it is brought back to the QT.

Originally Posted by anthias

2- are you sure of your ph test results ,is it accurate?
If the problem happend after the return to the QT then the cause would be the 50% change you have done to it.

I think the pH test is pretty accurate, but it might have to do with the ion-less state in the FW dip water, I guess Lee will respond to that. It is interesting to know how much sodium bicarbonate is needed to allow an electronic pH meter to read correctly.

[leebca]

Why should distilled water be used instead of RODI?

It was a suggestion to eliminate any unknown contaminant making it through the RO/DI system. This is one step you can do to help eliminate 'bad' RO/DI should that be a possible cause of the problem.

How about RODI water that sit with agraonite overnight (that is used for top off water to avoid alkalinity swing in a reef tank).

I've never heard of this process. Water added to replace evaporated water should be pure water and the add back should not show any measurable alkalinity swings in the display water, so long as the add back water is being put in routinely and frequently.

A small quantity of sodium bicarbonate is enough to add the ions needed for a reliable pH measurement. If in doubt, take some of the water out into a clean glass; measure the pH again and then add more sodium bicarbonate to it to see for yourself what effect it has.

Skip the aeration.

What is the size of your FW dip solution? what volume? Is it in a rigid container or?

Your equipment seems to be good choices. Have you calibrated the pH meter now and then? Is it a single or double point calibration?

Some people think that a FW dip is more difficult than a Formalin dip!

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

Water added to replace evaporated water should be pure water and the add back should not show any measurable alkalinity swings in the display water, so long as the add back water is being put in routinely and frequently.

Using agaronite to buffer RODI water was something that was discussed in the half year or so timeframe in RC, will try to find the reference. It has to do with fresh RODI will lower the alkalinity, I cannot remember the exact reasons.

Originally Posted by leebca

Skip the aeration.
What is the size of your FW dip solution? what volume? Is it in a rigid container or?

Would it run out of oxygen in 30 minutes? I usually use 1 gallon of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Originally Posted by leebca

Your equipment seems to be good choices. Have you calibrated the pH meter now and then? Is it a single or double point calibration?

It display as 8.2, so I think that is a single point?

Originally Posted by leebca

Some people think that a FW dip is more difficult than a Formalin dip!

hahhaha unfortunately, I have to agreed with that, so far with most of the FW dip I performed (except on some t.r. clownfish which are ultra hardy anyways); fish come out of formalin dip in much better conditions than FW dip

[leebca]

Would it run out of oxygen in 30 minutes?

Not so far in the last 35 years. Gas exchange occurs on the water's surface. Unless the room air doesn't support human life, the fish will be fine -- one fish per bath!

fish come out of formalin dip in much better conditions than FW dip

You just need to figure out what is going wrong.

The pH meter thing doesn't sound right. Do you calibrate the pH meter/probe? How do you do this?