[vaporize]

Hi Lee,

Thanks always for your advice and expertise, it's always very much appreciated.

I have read the "Formalin - friend or foe" a few times before, however treating brook is almost all failure for me (except the preventive treatment). However from what I read, when using formalin to treat brook, it should have a high success rate as even after the first formalin bath, 60-75% of the brook parasite on the skin should have been killed leaving the infected fish a higher change of suvival.

Every time when I see that my fish have brook like symptoms (white film on skin + fast breathing, swimming into higher flow area), I will treated them with formalin bath (7 drops per gallon, aerated QT water, for an hour). However I do not really observe the disappearing of the white film after the first formalin bath and usually the fish will be quite stressed and laying on the side breathing heavily.

From our previous few communication, I understand that brook:
- are of cilicated swimming nature and will be transmitted with contact
- they do not have 3 stage like ich/velvet (but can the transportation water be a mean of infection?)
- fish can be return to the QT water after formalin dip (is this true?)

Thank for the clarificatioin on this issue. I know there is something I am missing but I am not sure what... and this brook thing is really bothering me.

Also another thing is that the white film can sometimes be associated with velvet also, however in the case when no dusty white spot can be seen, can I safely assume that it is brook? It is quite bothering me as often when the white dusty spot appear, it's already terminal stage beyond help.

Also, are there any alternative treatment for brook? Or anything aside from hyposalinity that I can add to the QT to treat brook?

[leebca]

You ask some important questions, however the information you've provided is incomplete.

Originally Posted by vaporize

formalin bath (7 drops per gallon, aerated QT water, for an hour

There's a lot more to the bath than these steps and since I've known you to miss other procedural steps, I'm concerned. The pH and temperature must be controlled in this process. There are specific temperature limitations, too.

I don't know if 7 drops is the right amount -- did you measure the water it goes into? How much water? Are you using 37% Formaldehyde gas in water Formalin?

Also, the quality of the Formalin you are using is always a bit suspect. It can't be old. It has a shelf life of a few months and if it was on the shelf when you bought it, it may have already begun to decompose.

Originally Posted by vaporize

(but can the transportation water be a mean of infection?)

So far, it is believed that Brooklynella is not a waterborne concern. However, there are several organisms in this group of disease-causing microbes that can survive in water for a short time, but not enough to be of concern. There is the problem of trying to perform treatment on more than one fish in the QT. A treated fish must not come in contact with an untreated fish(es), even when both are in the same QT. It's important to separate fish during this process and not have multiple fishes in the QT.

Originally Posted by vaporize

fish can be return to the QT water after formalin dip (is this true?)

Yes. (BUT, see above)

Originally Posted by vaporize

Also another thing is that the white film can sometimes be associated with velvet also, however in the case when no dusty white spot can be seen, can I safely assume that it is brook?

Most of the time the two are easily discernible in their later stages. Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) is an extremely fast killer, with its spots being seen by the aquarist usually only just before the death of the fish. Only very susceptible fishes will die from Brooklynella in a day or two. Still, the two have been mixed up. Copper cures Marine Velvet but doesn't cure Brooklynella and that should separate the diagnosis, also.

Originally Posted by vaporize

are there any alternative treatment for brook? Or anything aside from hyposalinity

Hyposalinity isn't a Brook treatment. Formalin baths are the only effective treatment I know for Broolynellosis.


If you're using equipment that comes into contact with the fish's skin (e.g., nets) and that same equipment touches other fish's skin, that may transmit the disease. Be aware of contamination and even if there are minimal concerns, try to perform the process as if it was just one fish and all equipment would be cleaned and dried between use with another fish.

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

You ask some important questions, however the information you've provided is incomplete.There's a lot more to the bath than these steps and since I've known you to miss other procedural steps, I'm concerned. The pH and temperature must be controlled in this process. There are specific temperature limitations, too.

I don't know if 7 drops is the right amount -- did you measure the water it goes into? How much water? Are you using 37% Formaldehyde gas in water Formalin?

Hi Lee, thanks for spending the time with me again

I was just reading about it from some board to use 7 drops of 37% formaldehyge gas. I actually use teh Kordon Formalin3 product and follow the manufacturer's suggestion of 1 teaspoon per gallon for a bath treatment. The formalin3 was purchased from a wholesaler in US as I have a very hard time finding any not-old-looking formalin product up in LFS around Toronto area (most looked like their packaging was old and I really do not need to use that added trouble). I purchased a whole box of them since nobody carry 'fresh' Kordon product up here, and I don't trust aquatronics brand as they have been out of business for awhile too.

I also thought about going to chemical speciality places to buy formaldyge 37% solution but each bottle is like 1 gallon (smallest size) and I am not sure how long it will last me. If I get a gallon jug of this stuff, would it last me a long time or like you said its shelf life sucks?

Originally Posted by leebca

There is the problem of trying to perform treatment on more than one fish in the QT. A treated fish must not come in contact with an untreated fish(es), even when both are in the same QT. It's important to separate fish during this process and not have multiple fishes in the QT.Yes. (BUT, see above)

I usually obtain a pair of clownfish together, would treating them both in the same formalin bath have a very negative effect? I would think any parasite that might come in contact with the water will be killed, therefore skin-to-skin contact in the bath would be minimal?

Originally Posted by leebca

Originally Posted by leebca

Only very susceptible fishes will die from Brooklynella in a day or two. Still, the two have been mixed up. Copper cures Marine Velvet but doesn't cure Brooklynella and that should separate the diagnosis, also.Hyposalinity isn't a Brook treatment. Formalin baths are the only effective treatment I know for Broolynellosis.

I was using Hyptoslainity at ~ 1.015 to help the fish on the breathing problem, not so much on killing velvet or brook. The reason I am suspecting it's brook is b/c (1) no white spot and (2) it's a clownfish just arrived from shipping. Would it be better if I put copper + furan-2 into the QT like how some of the LFS do after shipment? I would think copper might affect fish more b/c some fish are not good with it.

Originally Posted by leebca

If you're using equipment that comes into contact with the fish's skin (e.g., nets) and that same equipment touches other fish's skin, that may transmit the disease. Be aware of contamination and even if there are minimal concerns, try to perform the process as if it was just one fish and all equipment would be cleaned and dried between use with another fish.

I rinse all equipment with hot water and dry after use. I was reading somewhere that nets might scarp off slimecoat off fish and not recommended to use, would this be true or it's still less stressful using the net?

As for the formalin bath steps, here is what I use:
(1) get water from QT directly (so pH & temp) should be the same
(2) add formalin3, 1 teaspoon for a gallon. Put in airstone & aerate the water. I did not however aerate the water for 3 hrs before the bath as some literature suggested to remove methanol, is that really nessary? As I dont work in a LFS and spending 4-5 hrs each time is kinda hectic (for me).
(3) net the fish and put them into the formalin bath and observe for 'dying' symptoms, usually they are not very much affected. Except there were times that they tried to grasp for air on the surface, is this a sign of something (methanol ? bad formalin? )?? They usually settle down after 10 minutes after I covered the bucket.
(4) check on the fish from time to time
(5) remove it after 1 hr and put them back into original QT.

Question: are there any other things that I should put in QT to help the fish with breathing problems?

Thanks again for the all the advice.

[RHINO13]

Hello Lee,

What do you use to clean your equipment? Im guessing not your typical kind of soaps (dish soap etc...) and tap water?

[vaporize]

Btw, I see some medicine such as Quick Cure has malachite green + formalin, and reading that malachite green might be able to help clear up mucus from gills, is that true or any use in QT? (Althou m.green will hurt bacteria culture)

[leebca]

vaporize,

The product Formalin3 is really 3% Formaldehyde gas. You need to use 37/3 or about 12 times this quantity in order to equal the quantity of a 37% solution of Formaldehyde. You should check the math to see you are using the correct amount.

If you review my post on the marine fish medicine chest, there are some links to places that sell medicines. You should be able to find Formalin in smaller quantities on the Internet. There's nothing wrong with using Formalin3. Just be very sure the right amount is used to get the proper treatment.

Two fish in the same bath at the same time won't be a problem as far as killing the microbes, but it is not too good for water quality control. Separate treatments is optimal. Two fish change the water conditions too quickly, and water quality is what you need to control during the bath. Gasping at the surface is an indication that there is a problem with the bath (pH, aeration, temperature, etc.).

I'd not recommend any antibiotic or copper treatment unless there is an identified need for it.

Nets do harm the fish. Nets can transmit skin diseases. Best not to use nets if you can avoid it. I use colanders. I use plastic bags to capture them. After use the hot water and drying out takes care of anything left over, but not while you're using it for multiple fishes.

Unfortunately methanol is a real contaminant of Formalin. If there is no mention of the long aeration in the Formalin3 instructions, don't worry about it. But it should be done with true Formalin.

Nothing more to help breathing problems except to remove the source of same. You don't want to 'mask' the symptom as much as you want to remove the cause.

[leebca]

Ryan,

Nothing special, actually. Nothing beats soaking in RO/DI or distilled water after a hot tap water wash, then allowing it to air dry. Few marine microbes get past the hot tap water; fewer still survive the distilled water and by the time the net dries, it is void of disease microbes.

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

Nothing more to help breathing problems except to remove the source of same. You don't want to 'mask' the symptom as much as you want to remove the cause.

I was under the impression that with velvet/brook type of parasites, it is usually because of the gill infestiation causing the fish to suffocate and cause death, is this not true? I was hoping to use lower salinity to help breathing or other ways to help them breath better, that way they can heal themselves in a way.

[leebca]

The course of Marine Velvet ends with death through the failure of the fish system. The fish's response to infection often includes, like in MV, a production of excess body mucous. This mucous is also produced on the gills where infection is most likely the starting point. Although gas exchange is inhibited, death is just as likely from weakness leading to other secondary conditions.

The lowering of salinity is to help the fish utilize its energy better. The lower salinity doesn't make it 'easier for the fish to breathe' what it does do is to reduce the amount of energy the fish needs for osmoregulation. In this way the fish conserves energy -- energy it can use to fight off infection and to repair injury. Lowering the salinity is not a means to help the fish exchange gas at the gill level -- it makes it easier for the fish to ''drink water.'

[gsechen]

did you use quick cure?

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by gsechen

did you use quick cure?

Not sure if the question was for Lee or myself, I usually go with Kordon's Formalin3 product (as suggested by Lee, it does require a different amount since it is only 3% formaldehye solution as suppose to full strenght formalin of 37%). I dont use quick cure as I wanted to avoid the big bang approach (not sure right or wrong).

Quick cure does have malachite green + formalin, the LFS that imports does dose all their holding tanks with quick cure + cupramine. There seems to be some use in curing/controlling brook as (nothing in dealer's tank but it shows up when I put in non-medicated tank); however might just be the time it require to show up. I do notice a bit less clownfish die from newly arrival brook. Not that I would recommend dosing your QT/hospital tank with this stuff, just a comment on its effectiveness.