Clownfish Not eating - medium-high breathing rate, diagnosis

[vaporize]

Hi LEE,

Thanks always for the advice, I will move my clownfish diagnosis out to a new thread.

The clownfish was purchased 7 days ago, it was listed as from Vanautu (I think it is either an A.akin or A.chrysopterus).

The fish is currently in a QT:
Salinity: 1.021
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
10G tank, sponge filter w/ air stone, barebottom, pot for hiding, powerhead for water movement

The fish has not shown any signs of eating except tried very little bit of food for the first day. It has no visible signs of ich/velvet/brook, however it does have medium-high breathing rate (that is slower than the infected fish caused by velvet/brook, however definitely faster than normal clownfish breathing rate). It is swimming near the top of the water indicating that it is having a bit of trouble breathing.

However what really concerned me is that it has not eaten anything for the duration of 6-7 days, tried garlic juiced NLS, mysis, ON flakes, salmon piece, shrimp and it shows no interest.

Also performed:
(1) FW dip w/ methylene blue on 3rd day (match pH, match temperature), does not show any improvement, however was stressed from the FW dip
(2) Formalin bath on 1st day, 6th day), does not show any improvement either.

At this point I am not really sure what is casuing the high breathing rate. I hope this is not a contribution from improper shipping or cynade poisioning (which has no cure). As mentioned by you earlier, velvet usually kills fast and brook does not kill as fast, I am hoping that it might be brook and started the formalin bath on the 6th day (last night), however there are no signs of improvement either.

Please share any insights, attached is a picture with & without flash.

Thanks

[vaporize]

Updates to the treatment I performed:

Performed the 2nd formalin bath (10 mL per gallon of Kordon Formalin3 product, for an hour) tonight, however it does not show much improvement at all, but the good thing is it does not have alot of negative effect either.

Added an UV sterilizer into the QT now and dropped salinity to 1.015 to help it conserve energy.

Another hobbist mentioned that it might be possible flukes as he experienced something similiar before and was determined to be flukes, would this be a possible cause also? (since there is no possible signs of brook visible).

[leebca]

Count the breathing rate. How many 'breaths' per minute?

You provide some information, but missing something. :eek3:

When you need help the bigger the picture and more info, the better:
Specific Gravity
Temp
pH
Ammonia
Nitrite

If you're dosing medicine -- don't just indicate how much you used, but how much you used in what volume of water.

Again you're doing more than you have to in the QT and probably shouldn't be doing. Don't put a powerhead in a 10g aquarium. This can be dangerous to the fish. The airstone isn't needed either, with an air-driven sponge filter.

A fish can live for a few weeks without eating, although if it came through the system without eating, it could now be on its 3rd or 4th week of fasting.

Fish don't eat because they are stressed. Sometimes it isn't anything the aquarist can do. It is sometimes a case where the fish will not acclimate. Make sure the environment is proper for this fish and keep trying to get it to eat. When the fish settles down, and it better adjusts to captivity in your hands, it may be tempted to eat something.

If the breathing is truly labored or excessive, it could be a parasite stressor. No really good way to tell without a biopsy. If you suspect flukes, then the best treatment is to use an organophosphate medication. In the category of 'flukes' there are dozens of different kinds. Make sure the fish is kept isolated since most flukes can easily spread to other fishes.

[vaporize]

Thanks LEE for continuous support, appreciated very much. As you might have guessed, I am kinda devastiated at this point and are trying to do multiple things hoping that one way might save the fish since I cannot nail down the cause. I am hoping for the best and hope this is not a case of bad acclimation/shipping stress or cynaide poisioning that is beyond my control. Talking to clownfish collectors, it seems A.chrysopterus are more susceptible to poor shipping conditions.

Count the breathing rate. How many 'breaths' per minute?

Counted a few times, around 24-26 per 10 seconds, so that works out to around 144-156 times per minute. However, it does not seem like it breaths as rapidly as velvet victims, those usually take bigger and deeper breaths. I have attached the link to a 30 seconds video to show you its breathing pattern (next post, uploading now).

You provide some information, but missing something. :eek3:
When you need help the bigger the picture and more info, the better:
Specific Gravity
Temp
pH
Ammonia
Nitrite

QT parameters
SG: 1.015
Temp: 80F
pH: 7.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0

Again you're doing more than you have to in the QT and probably shouldn't be doing. Don't put a powerhead in a 10g aquarium. This can be dangerous to the fish. The airstone isn't needed either, with an air-driven sponge filter.

I have removed the powerhead but put in a UV sterilizer, the fish does not seem to bother the fish swimming pattern.

A fish can live for a few weeks without eating, although if it came through the system without eating, it could now be on its 3rd or 4th week of fasting.

At the first day or two, I did noticed that it has solid brown feces, so it must be eating prior that. However after first two days, I do not notice that it has any feces anymore (probably b/c it did not eat), the stomach is a little bit concaved in now, but not severe. I best estimate is that it might last a week (or more if condition does not improve or worsen).

Fish don't eat because they are stressed. Sometimes it isn't anything the aquarist can do. It is sometimes a case where the fish will not acclimate. Make sure the environment is proper for this fish and keep trying to get it to eat. When the fish settles down, and it better adjusts to captivity in your hands, it may be tempted to eat something.

Trying and monitorin the parameters, it is clear that it can see the food but does not show interest in taking them.

If the breathing is truly labored or excessive, it could be a parasite stressor. No really good way to tell without a biopsy. If you suspect flukes, then the best treatment is to use an organophosphate medication. In the category of 'flukes' there are dozens of different kinds. Make sure the fish is kept isolated since most flukes can easily spread to other fishes.

I am only suspecting flukes because another aquarist told me that he had a similiar symptomed case earlier (fish breathing fast, no visible signs of common parasites, refuse to eat), so he performed a FW dip and found flukes, and his fish started eating after dislocating some flukes. So i was wondering if flukes can cause these symptoms, just wanted to verify it with you.

Today's update, performed the 3rd formalin bath, again no visible signs of improvements either. Neither shown improvements or worsen in terms of behaviours.

[vaporize]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHcK9ev1tU0

*should be available for viewing after 10 am EST* (I hope)

[leebca]

You may want to raise the pH to 8.3 -- 8.4 very slowly. This sometimes has a positive effect on the fish.

You might try some appetite stimulants. Although I've tried these, none have ever worked consistently. But. . .no harm in trying. Try garlic juice and vitamin B12. I think you've tried the garlic juice before, but you may want to soak another food in it.

You can try some natural, but unusual foods: a living clam opened, on the half shell (freeze it first for 24+ hours, then thaw to feed); a bit of fresh scallop flesh.

There are so many different kinds of flukes (as I mentioned before). It's hard to zero in on them. But since you've already done the FW dip and finishing up the Formalin bath sequence, I imagine that should have taken care of the majority of those kinds of parasites.

If the fecal matter was a solid string, it could be indicative of an internal parasite. These are best treated with medicated food, but your fish isn't eating. There are treatments to put in the water to kill intestinal parasites, but I've not had luck with them.

If you accomplish/try all the above suggestions, then I'd say you've done about your best for this fish.

[leebca]

Its breathing rate isn't that bad. The fish has the look of not having acclimated. This could be the acclimation process or just that this fish is not going to get along in captivity.

[vaporize]

Hi LEE,

GREAT NEWS~~~ dude finally started eating.

9th day into captivity in QT
4th day into formalin bath treatment

QT parameter:
salinity: 1.015
pH: 7.9 (I think the handheld pH meter is not calibrated properly)
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
temp: 78F
Observation: no visibl signs of brook, nor velvet, nor ich (some ppl suggested flukes might be a cause), breathing rate seems to stablize and at normal clownfish speed, more active and swim around (as suppose to stay close to top of corner), some scratching of gills (flukes??)

On the 9th day, it finally start to show a bit of improvement after taking multiple angle. I am not sure if it is totally contributing to the fact that I added vitamin B12 tablet into the water (to stimulate appetite) or it gets better acclimated or UV/formalin bath etc..

Today it started to swim around in a bit more normal sense. I added the vitamin B12 pill in and let it dissolve for an hour. I fed some freshwater live black worms. In the beginning it did not show any interest even the worm is moving in front of it, however when the worm hits the flow from the powerhead and darts forward, the clownfish went after it, seems like it likes the idea to eat prey that tries to escape. So I continue to add food to the powerhead flow to stimulate eating response, it did eat 4-5 black worm but still semi-interested (more like 20% of normal clownfish eating behaviour). This is good news as it has not eaten for the 9 days duration in my captivity.

Looking at the video below, you can see that it is scratching its gills. Given the previous FW dip, full formalin bath (3 days prior today), it has lower possiblity of brook or velvet.

Some suggested that it's flukes (is the darting in video a good indication of that??), so I continue today's formalin bath treatment with added (3mL methylene blue, 5mL malachite green) to help clear the gills a bit. Some recommended the use of Prazipro (as suppose to organophosphate due to OP's stressful nature), any ideas?

Thanks for all the help again.

Updated video today
http://www.youtube.com/v/vL5Hdr6AJMk

[leebca]

Too much flashing for it to be 'normal.' But, I would say it looks a lot better than before.

I'd say there is a chance that its gill(s) were damaged with the treatments. I would do not further treatments. Let the fish settle in. Get those immune boosters into the fish as soon as you can and start the fish on a proper omnivore diet.

Prazipro is okay. OP is not the problem. It is some of the other constituents that are packaged with it that is a problem. Like Clout -- I would never use it on marine fishes, even though one of its constituents is OP.

I would slowly raise the salinity to 1.018, and I'd still worry about the pH.;;

[vaporize]

I'd say there is a chance that its gill(s) were damaged with the treatments. I would do not further treatments. Let the fish settle in. Get those immune boosters into the fish as soon as you can and start the fish on a proper omnivore diet.

Thanks Lee, I have stopped the treatment and leave it alone tonight. It continues to show interest in live black worm, however not much interest in pellets (except a look or smell on it, it probably smell the food but not interested in going forward to eat it). Also added a new B12 pill & some aloe vera juice, do you think aloe vera juice will help on promote the gill healing? (I picked one bottle up when I went to health food store)

I would slowly raise the salinity to 1.018, and I'd still worry about the pH.;;

Started to raise it to 1.018 .

I might try to get some feeder guppies/ghost shrimp to supplement the diet of black worms as I heard that is too high in fat content & might cause blockage.

[leebca]

Don't disappoint me at this late time in our postings! The Anemonefish are omnivores. They need vegetables. Start putting in a small piece of macro algae every day. Put it on a clip, then put some on a rock to sink it. Try to present it differently.

Then look at my post on what the proper foods are for this fish. Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Get the fish eating properly as soon as possible. Put immune boosters into its food. Don't feed it anything from fresh water or the land; no guppies, no wheat or pellets that contain wheat or flour, no worms from land or freshwater, etc.

[vaporize]

Don't disappoint me at this late time in our postings! The Anemonefish are omnivores. They need vegetables. Start putting in a small piece of macro algae every day. Put it on a clip, then put some on a rock to sink it. Try to present it differently.

Then look at my post on what the proper foods are for this fish. Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Get the fish eating properly as soon as possible. Put immune boosters into its food. Don't feed it anything from fresh water or the land; no guppies, no wheat or pellets that contain wheat or flour, no worms from land or freshwater, etc.

Hi LEE,

I understand that clownfish are omnivores and should be fed a variety of marine meat & veggie diet. However my MASTER has decided not to go back to a full clownfish diet but only eats something like 10% of normal clownfish appetite. So at this point, I do not really dictate what it eats or not eat because it simply refuse to eat other type of food. LOL

Any hints on psychological training on eating? ;) I will try to give some veggie diet tomorrow but at this point, it is not even too interested in chasing worms that flashes by, maybe eat only 3-4 worms and that's it.

So not sure how to deliver the immune booster if it's not eating much other things.

Thanks

p.s. feeder guppies fail anyways Master decided to take a close look and let them live. *sigh*

[leebca]

Sounds like the fish is still not acclimated yet. Seems to be in a bit of twilight. Keep offering the proper foods and offer a variety. Hopefully it will come around.

Add some Vita-Chem to the water. At least it can absorb some vitamins in this way. Instructions are on the bottle.

[vaporize]

Fish is still not acclimating well, LEE have you use any human "multi-vitamin" pills with any success?

[leebca]

No. I've only used marine fish vitamins derived from sea creatures. Considering that vitamins are made specific for marine fishes and a different vitamin mix is made for freshwater fishes, I imagine that human vitamins aren't the best choice.

Even the human B12 to boost hunger is weak. It is unstable at the pH of sea water and looses its effectiveness pretty fast. These vitamins are made for human consumption at body pH and a hyposaline solution (human blood) and not sea water.

[vaporize]

HI Lee, just an update, I think this ultra high maintainence clownfish is finally pretty much acclimated and eating well for 2 weeks.

Before it was always scratching its gills and having some shivering, and I was suspecting flukes. But you told me that it's probably gill burn from formalin baths, I have not treated for flukes after that, and it seems it stopped after two weeks.

Just wanted to thank you again for the help. I will probably observe it for another week before I move it into it's own collection apartment I think it is definitely a A.chrysopterus as the blue stripe clowns are famous for finicky acclimation.