Can Quarantine Be Hastened If Cupramine Is Administered?

[Clydelyle]

I got a Yellow Long Nose Butterfly & a Flame Angel the 1st of this month. I FW dipped them using leebca's method, then placed them in seperate QTs for about 3 days until we had a bit of a cold snap. Only having one heater, I decided to place both fish in the larger of the two QTs (a 15 gal. hex). The very next day the butterfly developed ich. I started treating both w/cupramine in the aforementioned tank. I've been doing 50% water changes daily, as the QT is not cycled. The butterfly stopped eating pretty much as soon as it developed ich (which BTW cleared up almost immediately after I started treatment) and the flame stopped eating a couple days ago (never developed ich).

I'm wondering if it's okay to go ahead and put them in my DT after the two weeks of cupramine treatment, cause I'm kinda worried about the stress of the constant water changes on my fish which have already stopped eating, and I figure they should be pretty much disease-free already because of the treament.

Oh yeah, Hi everybody!

[weez1959]

Wouldn't it be better to buy a $20 heater than worry about the temp in the QTs

[leebca]

Thanks for posting. Sorry to hear of the troubles.

Just to be clear: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) doesn't clear up overnight. What you can see is only one of the few stages the parasite goes through. It can take up to 4 weeks to eradicate it, although by copper, it usually only takes two. You may want to look through this post:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

I'm assuming you performed the proper copper treatment, holding the copper within its effective concentration range and testing with the proper test kit to verify this. After the copper treatment, you hold the fish in quarantine to verify the treatment was a success. This holding is for no less than 4 weeks because it can take that long for the aquarist to actually 'see' anything. As you'll find in the above referenced post, what you see is NOT what you get.

Taking all this aside, what about the other 100+ diseases, parasites, disorders, etc.? The copper treatment only kills a few of these. Besides wanting to continue the quarantine to verify that the Marine Ich is cured, the quarantine process is used to determine if the marine life has any other condition, problems, diseases, parasites, etc. (that aren't killed by copper). Lastly, the quarantine process should continue for all the other reasons we perform quarantine:

Training the fish to eat. If it isn't eating in QT, putting it in the display can loose an opportunity for it to pay attention to you. Your fish still haven't been properly trained.

Looking for all problems. Some diseases, parasites, and maladies take weeks to show themselves. Your fish are 'unknown' disease carriers at this point in time.

Acclimation. Getting the fish used to captive life. Getting the fish used to its new owner. Doesn't sound like your fish have completed this phase.

Cutting the quarantine process short is still playing Russian roulette with the health and well being of the display system.

I don't know of any shortcuts to doing it right. Can you return the fish until you're prepared to perform a proper quarantine?

If not, then there are alternatives to frequent water changes and that is to setup a chemical filter to remove ammonia and nitrites. Together with removing uneaten foods within an hour, and solid wastes when they are observed, this can be quite an effective water quality control regime. Since the copper treatment is over, these chemical filters can help maintain water quality. Additional equipment is obviously needed to maintain water stability, however. No way around this if you wish to continue the quarantine.

Good luck!

[Clydelyle]

Thanks for the thoughtful and lengthy response leebca.

Was kinda hoping you might say the opposite, but what you said makes perfect sense.

You are right in your assumption about my testing, been registering constant .5 ppm using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. Not the best available I know, but the best I could get on short notice.

Both fish were eating b4 I started cupramine, I assume they have stopped because of the treatment, which I believe you mentioned as a possibility in your posting on copper (unless maybe I read that somewhere else?) I was just worried about the butterfly especially as he was the first to stop, and he's really skinny now.

I'm wondering what you mean by chemical filtration, do you mean like placing polyfilter or something in a hang on filter? I have been adding a couple of ml's Seachem prime with each water change, good idea?

[Clydelyle]

Wouldn't it be better to buy a $20 heater than worry about the temp in the QTs

:eek3: I guess; it's the 50 mile drive into town to get one that bums me out.

[leebca]

You're welcome. I'm afraid my recommendations are usually what aquarist don't want to read. I don't know of many shortcuts or easy routes to take in this hobby. So much of our success depends upon our observation, knowledge, patience, care, and Mother Nature. We may cultivate the other factors, but we haven't truly figured out how to make Mother Nature go faster or better.

What you read is correct (and somewhere in my posts, I wrote it also). The copper treatment is a stress to the fish and many fish stop eating during this treatment. Still, it doesn't have to be like this. Check for all water quality issues too to make sure some negative factor hasn't contributed to the copper factor.

If Marine Ich is truly the only condition you were involved with, then another less stressful course would have been a hyposalinity treatment. It takes longer, but with less stress on the fish. This treatment is more time consuming and even harder to control water quality then the copper treatment, however.

The chemical treatment would be as you guessed with a hang-on or small cannister filter packed with a media that absorbs and/or removes nitrites and ammonia. In this category of media, there are: specialized filter pads (not Poly Filters), Algone bags, resins, and reactive materials which say on their label that they remove ammonia and nitrites from saltwater. You'd follow their directions.

Sorry to hear of the distance you are to your nearest LFS. A good reason to stock things at home and buy online. Reefland sponsors are several good sources for online purchases of the above things mentioned.

For the fish you now have, putting them in the display system will likely mean you will be trying to get a dead fish out of the display system in a few days or weeks. The two fish need to be separated so the Butterfly is not intimidated by the presence of any other fish, even if you can see no interaction between the two now. Try live foods (you can get them online, too) including mysids, brine shrimp, and black worms (all delivered to you the next work day).

Other things you may find in at a fish market: Try a fresh bought living clam. Open it up. Rinse it well and freeze it 24+ hours. Let it thaw and place the open clam in the QT and see if the fish will eat it. Try a fresh scallop. Frozen solid, then cut into pieces of varying small sizes.

The Seachem Prime is not helping nor hurting. All you need is the optimal water source that tests out properly: WATER - Source and NSW

[vaporize]

One thing I would add is that flame angels (according to my various readings on multiple forums, do not remember I have read printed literature that confirms this) does not tolerate copper very well. I am not sure if this refers to simple copper or it is applicable to even complex copper (cupramine). It seems that copper can damage its internal organs and cause long term damage if not immediate.

Might be something you wanted to watch out for and treat the flame angel using hyposalinity treatment instead.

good luck

[Clydelyle]

Too late, the Flame's been in cupramine two weeks already. Good news is he is eating well now, even the butterfly is picking.

I chose cupramine over copper as I read somewhere (perhaps leebca's sticky) that dwarf angels will tolerate it, I hope so.

I've had terrible luck with hyposalinity I tried it after an ich outbreak last year when two of my fish were infected (killed 7 out of 8 fish one of which was a healthy flame), so I am kinda soured on the treatment, though I know it must work for others.

[Clydelyle]

Thanks Lee! I'm taking your advice to heart.