[cl2ysta1]

I have a true perc that is in QT right now that's mouth appears to be stuck open. the area around it seems very swollen, and i can make out tiny red specks here and there in the same area. It seems to be eating/acting fine, but it looks like it swelled so much its bottom jaw is almost broke!
It is in QT right now with several other fish out of my 120 b/c we had an ich outbreak. This fish however never had ich. Only the Powder blue and a purple pseudochromis. This clown had this problem slightly before QT, but now it has intensified.

This is a freshly set up QT
I am slowly lowering salinity. It has been 3 days and I still dont have it where it needs to be.
The PH is 8.3 i have been monitoring it, and added a buffer when it dropped a little.
the other inhabitants in this tank are:
Purple tang
Powder Blue Tang
2 Neon Cleaner Gobies
Purple Pseudochromis
Yellow watchman goby
Lawnmower blenny
another true perc
and a onyx clown

I did a search online, and found many other people posting with the same problem, but no one had an answer.

Two questions:

What is it?
and
What do I treat it with.

thanks in advance
Crystal

[cl2ysta1]

i forgot to add that i have a 5w UV sterilizer running on this tank also (20g), and a hang on canister running with carbon

[leebca]

Hi Crystal.

There may be one or more reasons for the fish to have its mouth in this position. If the area is irritated from parasitic attack, the fish may find it uncomfortable to try and close its mouth.

There is a possible physical damage (injury) to the mouth area.

There is a possible hyperextension condition in the fish.

I can't tell from the description nor the details you've provided the proper diagnosis. BTW I want to thank you for taking the time to provide the information you have. Few people understand the difficulty in trying to diagnose a problem with a one-line explanation and no fish history.

To further investigate a parasitic condition I'd need to know if the fish is having any difficulty breathing and how long it has been like this.

An injury would cause swelling and when the swelling goes down the mouth will return to normal.

If the condition is one of jaw hyperextension then there are two ways forward: do nothing and hope it returns to normal in a few days; anesthetize the fish and manipulate the urohyal bone which has jammed into the cleithra. I can explain in more detail how to perform the latter treatment.

As you can see, I cannot narrow down the situation any further than the above possibilities.

If the fish is having difficulty in breathing, it could die from the condition. Usually a parasitic attack affects breathing, so if the fish breathing normally, it reduces the likelihood of parasites. Unfortunately, certain cases of jaw hyperextension can also place the gills into a position where they will not function properly, causing respiratory stress (rapid breathing), that can lead to death.

In general, there is a 50/50 chance things will return to normal providing the fish is still eating and getting the proper and best nutrition. 80% of the remaining cases, the fish is helped by manipulating the urohyal bone. The balance (20% of the remaining cases) the fish is helped with a treatment by an antibiotic.

A fish with no swelling around the mouth isn't likely injured nor infected, leaving jaw hyperextension being the proper diagnosis.

There may be many others posting on-line but none have come here to ask me.

Your list of information does leave me with a question. . .Are all those fishes in the QT together? That is the way it seems to be written, to me.

[cl2ysta1]

Originally Posted by leebca

Hi Crystal.

There may be one or more reasons for the fish to have its mouth in this position. If the area is irritated from parasitic attack, the fish may find it uncomfortable to try and close its mouth.

There is a possible physical damage (injury) to the mouth area.

There is a possible hyperextension condition in the fish.

I can't tell from the description nor the details you've provided the proper diagnosis. BTW I want to thank you for taking the time to provide the information you have. Few people understand the difficulty in trying to diagnose a problem with a one-line explanation and no fish history.

To further investigate a parasitic condition I'd need to know if the fish is having any difficulty breathing and how long it has been like this.

An injury would cause swelling and when the swelling goes down the mouth will return to normal.

If the condition is one of jaw hyperextension then there are two ways forward: do nothing and hope it returns to normal in a few days; anesthetize the fish and manipulate the urohyal bone which has jammed into the cleithra. I can explain in more detail how to perform the latter treatment.

As you can see, I cannot narrow down the situation any further than the above possibilities.

If the fish is having difficulty in breathing, it could die from the condition. Usually a parasitic attack affects breathing, so if the fish breathing normally, it reduces the likelihood of parasites. Unfortunately, certain cases of jaw hyperextension can also place the gills into a position where they will not function properly, causing respiratory stress (rapid breathing), that can lead to death.

In general, there is a 50/50 chance things will return to normal providing the fish is still eating and getting the proper and best nutrition. 80% of the remaining cases, the fish is helped by manipulating the urohyal bone. The balance (20% of the remaining cases) the fish is helped with a treatment by an antibiotic.

A fish with no swelling around the mouth isn't likely injured nor infected, leaving jaw hyperextension being the proper diagnosis.

There may be many others posting on-line but none have come here to ask me.

Your list of information does leave me with a question. . .Are all those fishes in the QT together? That is the way it seems to be written, to me.

By reading all the information you gave me i'm going to guess its parasites. It does not seem to be just an injury or a hyper extension. The fish is having some difficulty breathing, and none of the other fish in QT are having this problem. The clown also seems to have clearish poop coming out of it. Not the normal brownish strings you usually see. If it is the parasites. are there any safe meds that I can use with the hypo. I have also noticed that today a few of the fish have started rubbing like they have parasites. I read that sometimes while in hypo the fish will get secondary infections. The water params are all perfect. There is an air bubbler in there also. and yes all of these fish are in the QT together. They are all small. the purple and PBT are about 2 inches each. and each clown is about 1.5 inches. neon cleaner gobies are obviously VERY small lol, the purple pseudochromis is about 1.5 inches, and the blenny and watchman are about 2.5 inches. I have been very dilligent about checking water params every day. and have been lowering the salinity very slowly as to not stress the fish out.

Let me know if there are some meds i can treat in here or some type of other action plan. I really dont want to lose any fish

thanks,
Crystal

[cl2ysta1]

PS thank you for the quick reply!!!

[leebca]

By putting the matter into a parasitic class, you've narrowed the diagnosis to about 100 different kinds.

With all the fish in the QT, there is no effective way of helping this fish as long as it is in with the group (see below for options). In essence, all fish are assumed to be infected even if you don't see any symptoms in the other fishes.

If you'll allow me to 'oversimplify' then I would say (without you ever repeating what I've written here! ) there are three groups of gill parasites. One is sensitive to formalin; one is sensitive to fresh water dips; and the third requires strong medications. By 'sensitive' I mean can be eradicated or killed.

All my fish acquisitions get a FW dip before going into the QT according to this method: Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes. Thus I automatically eliminate these kinds of parasites.

I think you can see that if you dip a fish then put it back into the QT and dip the next fish then put it back into the QT that by the time you dip the last fish, the first fish is infected by a fish yet to be dipped. This reinfecting scenario also holds true for the formalin bath treatment.

Next you think, what if I treat them all at the same time. This may work with a FW dip. But in the case of a formalin dip, formalin robs the water of oxygen and putting multiple fish through at the same time would stress the fish to death or near death.

Next you might think what if I set up multiple formalin baths to put one fish in each bath, doing all fish at the same time. Now you're thinking, except the formalin bath requires so much attention to hold it constant and controlled and since you have to monitor the fish closely during treatment, your divided attention between multiple containers will likely mean something will go wrong and you'll stress to death or near death one or more fishes.
I've provided the FW dip process above. This is the process to use for a formalin bath:
Formaldehyde: Friend or Foe - Treating Saltwater Fish Diseases

Until the above has been performed properly, I wouldn't embark on the chemical treatment.

There is one 'modified' way forward. . .Separate out just the Anemonefish with the swollen jaw into its own QT. Do the FW dip on it. See if the fish improves. No improvement, give it the formalin bath treatment as noted above. No improvement, then treat the fish with medication.

Once you find the treatment that corrects or addresses the problem, then you can treat the rest of the fishes.

Formalin treatment must not be done in a hyposaline solution. If you separate the fish with the swollen mouth, you can do the FW dip as is, but before you perform the formalin bath, the salinity must be returned to normal.

What is the pH of your QT? The pH and temperature will need to be controlled for the formalin bath.

[leebca]

Hyposalinity doesn't, of itself, create secondary infections or problems in fishes. It is the aquarist that does this by not controlling the hyposaline water quality. It is hard to control the pH in a hyposaline solution and fluctuations in that and other water quality parameters is what invites secondary problems.

[cl2ysta1]

They were all freshwater dipped before putting them into the QT tank. As i took them out of the main display they got freshwater dipped and than placed in the set up QT tank. I used a fresh dip for each new fish being dipped. So I think that we can rule out the ones sensitive to freshwater dips??

So this leaves a formalin bath. I might misunderstand you, but to do a formalin bath i will have to raise the salinity for the clown??? i am worried about this for a few reasons.

It is going to take at least two days to raise the salinity from where it is for him. Is this going to add too much stress being that he is having a hard enough time breathing as it is.

When i read through your fomaldehyde post it said this
"Therapy is most effective before the infection becomes advanced, and formaldehyde is contra-indicated when fish have sores, wounds, or gill disease. "
Is this meaning that the formaldehyde might kill the fish b/c it is having breathing issues?

and finally moving this fish around at least two more times is going to cause a lot more stress than the first move and being caught. I'm worried about its slime layer being sufficient enough for the formaldehyde dip.

what is your opinion on all this?



ps. the tank tem is about 79-80, and the PH is 8.3

[cl2ysta1]

Originally Posted by leebca

Hyposalinity doesn't, of itself, create secondary infections or problems in fishes. It is the aquarist that does this by not controlling the hyposaline water quality. It is hard to control the pH in a hyposaline solution and fluctuations in that and other water quality parameters is what invites secondary problems.

ahh yes this makes sense. While i have been monitoring every day. Who is to say how long the fluctations took place before I corrected them. Like PH.

[leebca]

Formalin dips/baths are not to be performed on any fish with an open wound, bleeding or otherwise. If you think there is such a condition, then this treatment isn't an option.

Terry is correct that this bath is not to correct gill diseases, but I thought you mentioned the spots you saw were around the swollen mouth. This then isn't a gill disease. Breathing difficulty doesn't mean a gill disease and most likely the breathing stress is brought on by excess mucous production from the infection and/or the position of the mouth. These thoughts don't preclude the possibility that the parasites are spreading/have spread to the gills.

I think you have two ways forward, treatment or no treatment. A parasitic infection doesn't go away on its own. So, no treatment usually means a dead fish, but not always. The treatment, as you rightly point out, could finish the job the parasites have begun, but are you proposing the fish will heal itself? Think of the treatment as the fish's last chance to live. Any fish can die before treatment, during treatment, or after treatment from the disease it has. Should then we not perform treatments?

Much depends upon the diagnosis Crystal. An Internet diagnosis is not very good in this kind of case because of the multitude of parasites and there being no microscopic identification of the culprit. So that leaves a more or less shotgun approach.

A formalin bath and freshwater dip are stressful for the fish. The formalin bath must not be done in a hyposaline solution -- that is a death sentence for sure. You need to bring the Anemonefish back to at least a specific gravity of 1.020.

How did you conduct the FW dip? How long did it last? If the FW dip was performed properly and long enough, then I'd say the fish are free of those kinds of parasites. That leaves the matter of a formalin treatment. Your call!

[cl2ysta1]

Well I went and go the stuff for the formalin dip. I'm going to try it on him only like you suggested. I talked to the owner of the LFS. It is a marine specialty store, and I said to him about bringing it back to normal salinity before formaline dips and he said he had never heard of that! lol. I'm taking your advice. I'll keep you updated on the progress. Thank you again for all of the helpful information. I asked far and wide and no one had a clue as to what caused an "open mouth" and had never heard/seen it before. I dont beleive it has open sores on it. We'll see how it goes.
Thank you again.

Crystal

[stiffler]

I have the same problem.

have a 125 g tank that has been set up for about three years. 70 lbs of live rock, power compacts. Some leathers, mushrooms ( several types) in it. 18uv ster.

Currently have a yellow tang, flame angel, clown, blue "hippo" tang, and a recently added Naso tank (3 1/2 wks ago).

Lost a sm. flame cardinal about 2 months ago when I was on vacation. Disappeared.

Naso tang got ich when I added him and wouldn't eat but added Kich Ich and it cleared. Ran out of Kich Ich and it reoccured till I got to pet store to continue treatment. When it reoccured hippo was now showing signs along w Naso (mild). Started treating w Kick Ich about a week ago and everything was still eating strong. Skimmer is off. Recent water change was done and all levels are good. ( when I started adding new dose of Kich Ich)

Came home from work today, and hippo is sitting at bottom of w mouth open but looking better as far as spots. I feed the fish and he swims to the food but can't seem to close his jaw. He was excited to see the food but wasn't eating, it seems like he can't close his mouth. looks to be breathing heavy but no swelling, actually seems a little drawn above mouth heading towards eyes. if that makes sense. he always eats like a pig and I didn't notice it last night when I feed him. But he swam around tonight when I put food in but couldn't close his mouth. I worked a 18 hr day yesterday and put the food in but didn't pay close attention. Any suggestions on treatment what treatment first? I will also need to re read you posting but appreciate any help on this and hope his clown gets better.

Local pet store wasn't sure and suggested maracyn or maracyn II????
I appreciate any help
vbrep_register("23478")

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I pretty much covered the possibilities in the above post. The only thing I can add is that your fish are infected with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). So the condition you now see can be brought on by that parasite.

Products, such as Kick Ich are actually not effective. In fact, I'd like to quote Terry D. Bartelme:

I actually arranged for several LFS to test Kick Ich at the request of the president of the company that makes it. Sorry to say that the results were less than satisfactory.

You are experiencing the fish going in and out of resistance and immunity. They are sick and they are giving up their life and energy in trying to manage the parasite.

This added stress factor will lead to a shortened life and other conditions, such as what you are witnessing.

I've never known the condition to be caused by a bacterial infection so I never recommended antibiotics (Maracyn). However, the fish already being sick, there is a greater chance for them to be infected by bacteria.

The first treatment is to eradicate the Marine Ich. Move all fish to a hospital tank or several hospital tanks and use one of the three known treatments that gets rid of Marine Ich. Let your marine system remain fishless for 8 weeks. Once all the Marine Ich is gone, then you can address other problems (IF they exist).

You may wish to read this:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

[Penguin]

I have this same problem with my clown, just noticed it yesterday. Her mouth is stuck open. I saw a bit of redness around the mouth and it appeared a little drawn in the area between the mouth and eyes. The interior of the mouth looks light colored with just a small opening in the middle. This might be the normal mouth anatomy--not sure. She is breathing relatively normally but unable to eat. I also noticed she has white stringy feces instead of the normal kind.

Any ideas? I think parasites are out in my case. I've had the fish for over 5 years, and haven't added any new fish in at least a year and a half.

[leebca]

It's been estimated that about 1/3 of the wild marine reef fishes caught for our aquariums have intestinal worms. Not a problem, since in the wild the fish gets enough nutrition to feed both itself and the worms.

In captivity these worms remain in the fish, depriving the fish of its full nutrition from the foods being fed. If these worms are of the type that lay eggs in the fecal matter, then they are easily spread to other fishes in the aquarium.

If the fish remains healthy with adequate nutrition for itself and the worms, all goes fairly well. But should nutritional, or any other stressors enter into the picture, the fish begin to give in to the intestinal worms. The worms multiply and then to the aquarist, become more obvious (relative to the look of the fecal matter).

So I wouldn't rule out intestinal parasites. In fact the sequence of events could be that the fish locked its jaw in this position and, unable to eat properly, has succumbed to the worm infection.

In this situation I'd attempt to manipulate the jaw while the fish is anesthetized, then treat the fish for intestinal worms. If the manipulation has no effect (that is, the jaw was not locked into position by bone orientation) then I'd treat with an antibiotic while treating for worms.

[Penguin]

I tried catching the fish but it's going to be very difficult. The mouth actually looks a little better today--less gaping and she could actually eat a little. The red patches are still there though. If I can catch her I will treat in QT. If not I'll just have to hope for the best.