Tangs... copper or hypo?

[Tourkid]

Lee, hello! hope your having a good summer

Ive spent some time tonight reading thru your threads, and I only found 1 thread on the topic im looking for.

In the thread you suggested cupramine to treat a tang with ick. Im a huge fan of cupramine nowdays and would love to use that as a solution.

Ive read copper is really bad for tangs and could cause HLLE. what do you think? I have a new powder blue tang that may need a treatment

thanks!
Maggie

[leebca]

Hi Maggie.

So far, so good. It has been exceptionally hot and dry here, though.

Cupramine is safe not only for Tangs and Dwarf Angelfishes (which, BTW are usually sensitive to copper treatments), but also scaleless fishes.

When I acquire a Tang of the Genus Acanthurus I give it a copper treatment because of the great possibility the fish has Marine Ich and/or Marine Velvet.

If you are sure the fish has Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) then I would opt for the hyposalinity treatment. A hyposalinity treatment is harder on the aquarist, but easiest on any fish with Marine Ich. Other than this, there is no reason to not treat Marine Ich in Tangs with Cupramine.

If the copper treatment is performed in a hospital tank or QT then after the treatment, the fish is returned to a normal (very low) copper environment of seawater. The time in treatment is not long enough for HLLE to develop, nor be the cause of HLLE. Although there is a list of possible causes of HLLE in marine fishes, copper isn't one of them because, as mentioned above, it is a short-lived treatment.

Hope this helps!

[Tourkid]

It does help. I feel more comfortable using cupramine.

Im not positive if it has ick yet or not. There are 3-4 spots on 1 fin.... It makes me want to go ahead with the 1/2 dose of cupramine today.. but I havent had the tang for even 24 hrs yet so I dont want to jump the gun either.

Its fat and eating everything except flake (all colors of nori, mysis, formula 2, emerald entree)

Its still a young fish.. I dont want to keep it in qt any longer than needed. Its my first tang and Im a lil nervous about keeping it in qt to long.

Im thinking Ill wait and see if more dots show up or flashing ect.

thanks!
Maggie

[Tourkid]

ugh, not so great. I dosed 1 ml of cupramine lastnight, its definately ick and theres spots on the body too.

today she would only swim in one spot.. not sure if its because of her reflection on the bottom but she kept her mouth on the floor kinda all day. wouldent eat a thing

I did a 100% water change, re acclimated and left the light off for the remainder of the day (a couple hrs earlier than usual)

Im going to start hypo after its eating agian... hopefully it will be eating agian.

any advice or comments on my descision?

thanks!
Maggie

[leebca]

Keep the lights dimmed. Make sure all copper is removed before lowering the salinity. Copper turns particularly poisonous to the fish at low salinity. If you had any decorations, live rock, substrate, equipment, in the treatment tank you added copper to, remove it and start with equipment that has never seen copper.

Hyposalinity can work well if the aquarist pays close attention to water quality, especially pH, and salinity (the later using a refractometer). Read through this to make sure you're on the right track: Hyposalinity Treatment

Ask if you have any questions. Good luck!

[Tourkid]

If there were trace copper and i did hypo would it cause an issue? (like if there was copper on the seams of the tank.. a ounce or less of the old copper water made it back in the tank ect)

Less than what would show up on a test kit.

Ill get new equipment but I want to be sure its not going to get posionous if there were traces

It instantly started swimming and acting happier. no eatting. Ill try tomorrow.

What do you think the problem was? Id really rather do the copper since theres copper in the tank and I feel more competent using copper.

Think it would work if i went slower.. like 1/2 mil every 48 hours until I reached the right level? Are tangs sensative to copper? or is it just bevause of the helle rumor that general assumption is dont give tangs copper?

[leebca]

Copper, below test kit levels, will attach to plastic, glass and of course any carbonate-based materials. If the 'seams' are the old type glass sealant/caulking, then that could be an issue. In hypo, trace copper in significant excess of the natural amount in seawater, is a poison to fish.

I need more information before I can speculate/answer your other questions.

Tangs are a bit 'psychotic.' They 'imagine' things sometimes. I can't recommend the additions of copper unless you tell me you are in fact using Cupramine and the volume of water in the treatment tank. Are you checking the copper content with either the Salifert or Seachem Copper Test Kit? What readings are/were you getting? using what test kit?

Are you sure it was the copper or was it some other issue with water quality that changed the fish's behavior? A large water change didn't only remove the copper, it removed any other poisons, contamination, etc., as well as any excess ammonia, nitrites, etc.

Tangs are sensitive to copper ions, and chelated copper. Cupramine is not chelated nor does it produce copper ions.

[Tourkid]

yep, using cupramine

salifert test kit

I never tested the water. I added the first dose of cupramine and was going to add the second dose tomorrow evening (48 hrs later)

I doubt the water was bad in any other way

it came from the display, i added a juciy biofilter inside an aquaclear, salinity 1.025, temp stable at 80

when it was acting bad this morning i had to run, so I took out 3 gallons and replaced it with 3 gallons of tank water. it perked up a bit

this evening it wasent any better, so i did the full water change added a fresh biofilter and its swimming all about now and acting normal.

I want to use the cupramine. Its best for me. but.. im re reading your hypo thread right now. I have a great refractometer, I dont like the thought of using baking soda though. will very frequent water changes help the ph instead? (water from tank with added r/o water until salinity matches)


Oh.. looking at pics of marine velvet now too just to make sure it isent velvet... never delt with it before

[leebca]

Stop using display water. You'll note in the posts, all water changes are done with made up water. You continually run the risk in setting another disease on the fish by using display water.

You say you doubt the water quality was bad in any other way. Was it checked for ammonia, nitrites, etc., etc.? Many of the biological filter bacteria do not like copper and will sometimes stop their metabolism, sending the water quality to the bad end of the spectrum. This is covered in the Copper post: Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

Testing is the only sure evidence of water quality conditions for these basic poisons. Your water changes and behavioral changes indicate it could be water quality. Tangs are very sensitive to poor water quality.

Read the hyposalinity post closely. When the water is low in buffering ability (like hyposalinity) the pH is unstable. More water changes of unstable water doesn't stabilize the water. Control the pH as recommended.

I'll be offline for the next 18 or so hours.

[Tourkid]

hmmm.. If a biofilter can cause that much havoc, then thats my best logical guess is i killed it with copper and left it in the aquaclear.

I just woke up a little while ago, the tang is eatting agian, hes colors are better (his black face is black agian instead of that pale scared color)

So what I WANT to do is wait a day... add 1/2 ml of cupramine, wait 48 hours add another 1/2 ml, and do that till I reach the right level.

What do you think? I CAN do hypo, im just nervous about leftover copper and the ph situation. But it cant be any harder than doing water changes and doing the math to re add the copper im thinking...

[leebca]

You can always add copper at a slower-than-recommended pace. Just be sure to do ALL the testing you should be doing.