[King_Aero]

I've been monitoring my parameters in my QT. My ammonia is slightly elevated (0.3). I've done two water changes (25% and 40%) with little change. I unfortunately didn't have a sponge in the sump with denitrifying bacteria already established. I am using an Aqua hang on filter with biomax filter which should be removing ammonia/nitrite. It also contains a sponge which is fairly typical. The problem with continuing water changes is that the medication becomes diluted and it creates a problem in knowing how much medication is in the water. I've also made sure all left over food is out of the tank. How do people keep good water quality in QT without an established sponge with denitrifying bacteria?

[leebca]

Most people who do it (who care and do it correctly) do it the way you're doing it. If the biological filter isn't ready and the QT isn't ready, then they have to do what you are doing to make it work.

Remember. . .If you get a reading of 1 ppm (or whatever) when you do a 50% water change, you are only lowering it by 50%. Keep removing waste and don't disturb the filter and eventually, like in the marine system, the right bacteria will step up to do their job.

Some recommendations may be found here: How to Make a Successful Water Change

You can medicate a larger (slightly) amount of water properly, then only use a part of it for a change, if it is easier to measure everything that way.

There are chemical ammonia absorbents. I have found Algone to be helpful at times and it doesn't take up many of the medications. Many of the absorbents can't be trusted not to interfere with the medication level.

[King_Aero]

what is your experience with AmQel for removing ammonia/nitrite? I've seen several recommendations and I know its available locally. I'm glad you told me that some can interfere.

I think I'll make up a batch of medicated water like you suggest.

On side note, I've read the quarantine article and the one thing that stands out, is moving the sponge from the sump and the QT and then back after you are done. Would I not be transfering medicated water with the sponge back to the main system? On one hand, it's probably not enough water to make a difference and would be very very diluted.

[leebca]

I don't have experience with AmQel. You need to e-mail and ask them if it absorbs or interferes with. . .[then list all the chemicals you're using].

Glad you are thinking. But think a bit further. AFTER treatment, you remove meds and you still hold the fish in QT for observation for a few weeks. Water changes during that time, and the use of carbon or other absorbents to remove drugs should render the sponge filter harmless to the marine system. . .right? The reasonable exception may be copper. But, it is a very inexpensive piece of equipment. If in doubt, throw it away and put in a new one in the marine system to have it ready -- you can in fact put in one now while doing all this QT work.

[King_Aero]

I just realized I spelled the product wrong! Its Amquel by the company Kordon. And I see the big picture now with the whole sponge business. It makes sense now. And the best point, is how easy and cheap it is to have a sponge in the sump ready to go whether you reuse it or not. I get the key is to make sure no detritus, etc is getting caught in it as it would then lead to problems I think (nitrates).

I've made my batch of medicated water. I've got the salinity and the proper medications in the water. I measured my ph in the QT and realized that the water changes have lowered the ph. And I've read several posts from you that state that ph is very important to be stable! It's about 7.7-7.8 down from 8.0. I also read that I can increase it by 0.1 day. I feel pretty stupid I didn't measure that parameter in my new SW water.

I'm going to buffer my batch of water with baking soda to get it to the right level and slowly raise it over the next couple of days.

The protrusion is barely visible now but she seems to be "listing" to one side a bit recently. What does that indicate?

[leebca]

I like Amquel and have used it, but never in the presence of so many different medications that you are currently using. I wouldn't risk it at this point in time.

Still not eating?

The listing indicates spreading of the internal condition, now probably bacteria, into the bladder and other organs. You see, Maracyn Two goes inside the fish to stop bacteria, as well as the surface bacteria. Erythromycin only affects surface bacteria. BTW the Erythromycin kills the nitrifying bacteria which are Gram Positive. So the likelihood of getting a biological filter running in the presence of an Erythromycin treatment is pretty small.

The choice of the right antibiotic is, in of itself, a key to success. So many times people tell me they have X on hand, but X isn't the right one. They proceed to use X. To humans, an antibiotic is an antibiotic but there are so many different kinds and they do different things and affect different microbes, in different ways.

Many people forget about pH at these times. You're not alone. The thing to do is, like you have, realize the situation and move it s-l-o-w-l-y to the right range.

[King_Aero]

It sounds like I could probably stop using Erythromycin since the symptoms indicate that its internal. The outer wound under the pectoral fin looks better and like I say the protrusion is completely gone now. She does seem to be getting more sluggish over time though.

As for eating, last night she was mildly interested which was an improvement from the past.

Usually when things spread, it means they are getting worse. Is that the same conclusion with fish? Or is the infection trying to survive by spreading because its being killed in other areas of the body? I may have a naive sense of biology since it wasn't my best subject in school.

I measured ammonia this morning and it went down to 0. And nitrites where slightly elevated (0.1).

When I made up my water last night everything was good. PH, temp, salinity, etc. However, I looked at it this morning and the water was cloudy. Do you think the water is safe to use? I used baking soda to buffer ph, and is the only thing I can think of that is causing it. But it wasn't cloudy for a few hours after I had added it.

Btw, thank you very much for your time. My fish would not have made it to this point without your help!

[leebca]

Baking soda/sodium bicarbonate, can throw off the alkalinity. That is most likely the cloudiness you see. I would switch to sodium carbonate. Don't use cloudy water.

You can stop the Erythromycin.

The concept of spreading usually means the bacteria/parasite is winning, not on the run.

A small nitrite is okay. Ammonia must be non-detectable.

Keep trying to get it to eat medicated food.

You're welcome!

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

I have a few questions for you (again!) and an update. I wasn't able to convince her to eat yet and she's still listing to one side. I did find a long white stringy poop, I took a picture in case there is any significance to it. One thing I notice in her behavior, is that she still pretty adament in protecting her environment. She still tells me who's boss if I put my hand in the tank. Very similiar to her attitude when healthy. This really only indicates perhaps her state of mind. If a fish could care less of anything, I think its a bad sign.

The question I have is about her mate. Ever since I took her out, he has stopped eating. This seems strange but he stays on the side of the tank where he can barely see her in the QT. I had her out of the tank for an hour earlier on in her problems for a formulin bath (this is before I came here for help). When I put her back in, the male was unbelievably happy and swam as fast as he could from one side of the tank to the other to greet her. I'm tempted to put him in the QT with her but I know its not a good thing to medicate him if he's not sick. I know that they are better off together mentally, but physically it isn't the best thing for either of them. Do you think I should keep them seperated? It just seems the seperation of the two is adding to the problems I'm having.

[leebca]

Captive fish behavior has to be kept in perspective and out of perceived human attributes. Not easy to do. The relationship between the male and female Anemonefish is one based upon dominance. The female maintains her gender through dominance involving assertion anywhere from a 'mean look' to physical abuse of the male. Putting the male in with the female may give the male some incentive, but it puts the female into its aggressive/dominance behavior. That is, Mother Nature will call upon her to 'do her thing.' This means adding stress to her. Heaping additional issues on the female will not improve her recovery and I think you should do what is in her best interest right now. A healthy fish can go without eating for many weeks. Putting them together, in my opinion, is not a good idea.

The excrement indicates we are on the right track. Its form and color indicate intestinal parasites. When it comes out unformed, grainy and light brown to brown, then the fish is gaining control over the parasites. Also the sign of excrement means the blockage is over with.

Don't put your hands into the tank. You do not want her expending energy to fend you off. You should not be adding to her stress, but finding ways to reduce the stress on her.

[King_Aero]

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. I gotta think more like mother nature! I knew I had to keep them apart, but I can't help but feel sorry for the little fellas. But I'm learning LOTS for the future. Proper diet, proper QT'ing and proper acclimatizing.

If we keep animals as pets, we have the responsibility to provide the best we can for them.

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

You mention that the "listing" could be a bacterial infection in the bladder and other organs. Is Maracyn 2 still the right medication? And according to the instructions for the pranziquantel and metronidazole (API General Cure) the treatment is over (i.e. add package, wait 48 hr, do water change, add packet, wait 48 hours, add carbon). I've done everything but add carbon since I have the Maracyn 2 still in the tank. Should I treat for internal bacterial infection and if so what do you recommend?

Thank you again.

[leebca]

I would perform a large water change and only add-back the Maracyn Two. You want to keep the M2 treatment going for a full 5 days and if the fish has not visibly improved, do a second 5-day treatment.

Maracyn Two goes inside the fish to treat systemic bacterial infections as well as surface (topical) infections. It is the one to rely on at this stage, unless the fish gets worse AFTER the first 5-day treatment.

If you want to prepare for the contingency that Maracyn Two won't be able to totally get the bacteria under control, the next choice is an antibiotic that goes inside the fish, too, but which fights other types of bacteria. For this fall-back treatment you'd need to have on hand medication containing this: Nitrofurazone (the Aquatronics’ product: Furacyn, and in the product Spectrogram). Since you mentioned putting hands into the water, which advanced aquarists don't do, you should be aware that Nitrofurazone is a human carcinogen and must be handled carefully, if you choose to keep some on hand or obtain some for this fish.

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

I've done what you've suggested. I did a major water change. I was done the first Maracyn 2 treatment so the water I put back in was not medicated. I decided to run carbon for the day to get the water quality up and clear out any remaining medication. My main problem now has been keep the water quality up. I measure ammonia/nitrite 2 or 3 times a day. Plus I've been doing water changes at least once, if not twice a day if the ammonia is up. To keep ammonia down, I just started using Amquel Plus which works wonders but I was surprised to find that after less then five hours the ammonia was back up again. I used a bit more Amquel to drop it again.

(Side Note: Most of my kits are Salifert, but my ammonia/nitrite are Hagen, eek. I can't find any information about whether the Hagen ammonia test kits use Nessler Reagents, do you happen to know if they do? If they do use Nessler, then any further readings with Amquel in the water would be off).

I notice when the ammonia is a bit higher she'll go by the overflow and face into the flow. Is that because of the ammonia and the fact that its irritating/burning her gills? I'm keeping a close eye on everything, but I'm not sure if there is anything else I can do to ensure good water quality.

My plan is to start a second 5 day treatment of Maracyn 2 tomorrow (this time with saltwater version). I have some ordered by mail and it will arrive tomorrow. Her attitude seems pretty good. Was quite frisky after the water change. I was a bit concerned at first, but I had all of the params matched. Most of the time, she's tucked away in a pot I have in the tank, other then when the ammonia starts to rise (she'll move to the overflow). Which now a clear indication to me, something is up. I also found another, white stringy poop today. And ulcer is completely gone

Also, would you use an airstone in this configuration? I've been using one periodically and especially with Amquel to ensure the water is oxygenated enough. But I also read it could lower PH too (I've been measuring and haven't seen a drop yet of any significance).

When I mention hands in the water, it's more or less to make adjustments to equipment or take out her pot for quick rinse. I do realize its something you don't want to do very often, as you could introduce contaminations into the tank water. I'm curious how you get around working with your tanks without hands in the water and when you refer to not putting hands in the water are you talking about the QT only or any tank in general?

[King_Aero]

Well... I just got her to eat!! She's starting to taking food. I made up a batch food made from frozen ingredients, I tried my best to stick with the practices you describe in the food nutriution sticky. I added supplements and a bit of garlic to taste. I'm pretty excited!

And I think the Hagen Ammonia test kits DO have nesslar reagents in them. Therefore, my ammonia readings where off after treating with amquel.

[leebca]

Seems like you got your Amquel-Hagen answer. I didn't know the answer to that one.

Continue with the Maracyn Two for 5 more days.

Put the Jungle into the food and follow its directions, or follow the directions for a Praziquantel treatment if you are using Praziquantel. Now is the time to give her an internal de-worming through medicated food.

I use plastic gloves. At earlier times, I made them myself. Then found long surgical gloves (I didn't want to know what they were used for). Now you can buy gloves that come up to your shoulder. Some are thick; some are thin. I use the thin. Choose what you like; but choose to use one. Thick ones are available on-line and probably carried by some of the Reefland sponsors.

I think she's making good progress. Sorry you have to work so hard to control the water quality. Hopefully there won't be a next time, but if there is, you'll be better prepared.

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

Just thought I'd post an update. I've been putting the female through another 5 day treatment of Maracyn 2. Today is the last day for treatment. Up until last night, she ate but only a few pieces per night and was quite picky. Last night, she ate quite a bit. Once this medication has run its coarse I'm going to just focus on nutruition and getting her eating/pooping normally. I'll leave her in the QT for the next 4 or 5 weeks to make sure things are good. The ammonia/nitrite levels have been more manageable this week. Perhaps its was some left over medication that killed off the denitrifying bacteria. I'm not sure. I know Maracyn 2 has no affect on that.

She seems to out of the woods and on track for a healthy return to the DT.

[wozza]

i have been following this thread since it started and i must say King_Aero, if you carry on handeling things like this im confident that you will make an exelent reef keeper, best of luck.

james

[King_Aero]

Thank you. Thats nice to hear! I really felt compelled to help my fish because in reality I put her in the situation she was in. Poor nutruition and poor water quality (I was ignorant about the first, but trying my best to improve the latter). She *may* have had an existing condition when I got her (i.e. worms) and a proper QT process would have solved it before it escalated.

Some people have said to me, "Its just a fish, flush it". To which I said, "A pet is a pet" (and how would you like it if I flushed you alive to a slow death). And animals don't deserve that kind of treatment, regardless of what value of "worth" or cognative ability we perceive animals to have. I just felt responsible for giving her the best shot at getting better, just like we should with any other pet.

If anything, I will be MUCH better prepared and educated for the future. I really love learning about this hobby. The more I learn, the more I get bit by the bug.

[wozza]

I really love learning about this hobby. The more I learn, the more I get bit by the bug.

well you are in the best place to learn, i am a member of other fourms and although they may get more hit or faster replys the information isnt always that good, the info on here i have found to be second to non, lee,ninong and the crew realy know what they are talking about.

james