[King_Aero]

Hello,

My female percula clownfish has been having some problems the past couple of days. She has stopped eating and has a ulcer/leason/abbrasion under her pectoral fin. I have a thread going at Aquarium Pros that outlines all of the symptoms and what I have done so far including pictures and videos. I really want to help my fish and I hear Lee is the man on these forums for helping people like myself!

Here is the thread:

Sick Female Clownfish - .::AquariumPros.ca::.


I'd love to continue the discussion here and get any feedback you guys may have.

Thanks in advance.

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I definitely need to see the photos. When I go to the link, the photos won't enlarge. Try posting them here.

I also wish to know:
Have these Anemonefishes ever been treated for anything?
Are they wild or tank bred?
Have they been de-wormed?
What and how often do you feed? -- List EVERYTHING including supplements.

The fish will have to be moved to a hospital tank. Get it ready and even move the fish when it's ready, while you send me the photos to study. A close up and better photo of the vent (anus) is needed, too.

I'll be online tomorrow, only early in the morning for a short time, then not again until evening.

[King_Aero]

Originally Posted by leebca

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I definitely need to see the photos. When I go to the link, the photos won't enlarge. Try posting them here.

I also wish to know:
Have these Anemonefishes ever been treated for anything?
Are they wild or tank bred?
Have they been de-wormed?
What and how often do you feed? -- List EVERYTHING including supplements.

The fish will have to be moved to a hospital tank. Get it ready and even move the fish when it's ready, while you send me the photos to study. A close up and better photo of the vent (anus) is needed, too.

I'll be online tomorrow, only early in the morning for a short time, then not again until evening.

Thanks for the welcome. I took in the mated pair of clownfish of a co-worker who needed to take down their tank. They had them over 2 years and I estimate them to be about 3years old. I had a juvenile clown fish in the tank prior to that had died a month earlier. There was nothing in the tank at the time I added these fish. I didn't QT them before putting them in, I put them straight in after aclimmatizing them. To my knowledge, they have not been treated with anything. I'm inclined to say that they are tank bred, since the previous owners purchased them at a pet store as babies. But I can not be certain. (Any way to tell? I.e. behavior wise?)

I've been feeding a fairly wide variety of foods. I originally feed mostly just mysis shrimp, but I have been having troubles keeping my nitrates down so I reduced feeding and started using flakes. For the past month, they have been on a flake/granules diet. The brands I've been using are NutriMax Value flakes and granules. I also have been feeding Formula 2 (green package). I also have been feeding Omega SuperColor (this was their original diet with previous owners) as of a week or two weeks ago. Also, since I moved to flakes/granules, I would feed once a week with mysis, thawed and rinsed. As for feeding frequency, I feed once when I get home and its a fairly healthy dose of feeding. And then sometimes, since they look like they want more I'll feed a little night cap before they go to bed and lights are off. Not always though. Sometimes on weekends, I'll feed earlier in the day, if we may not be home at the regular feeding times. Since the lights do not come on until 10am, I don't feed in the morning. They are sound asleep when I check on them in the morning.

I will try taking more pictures tonight. Its been a challenge getting well lit photo's that are close enough to see. I'll keep trying hopefully you can get a good look at them. I'm going to buy some maracyn2 on the way home tonight in case its a recommended treatment.

Thank you very much for taking the time!

[leebca]

Good idea on the Maracyn Two. If you can, buy the one for Saltwater fish.

No way to tell behavior-wise as to their origin.

I'm concerned that this is an internal problem with secondary bacterial infections. The photo of the vent is most important to me.

I won't say your choice of foods and feeding schedule is all wrong, but almost all wrong. There needs to be considerable improvement to that. Fish can live with internal parasites for their entire life, so long as they are properly nourished. That is, they have to receive enough nourishment for the parasite as well as for themselves. As the nourishment decreases and/or stressors increase, the parasites can get the upper hand. No parasite wants to kill its host, but in the captive life, parasites can easily do just that with the change in nutrition and additional stress factor(s). This sort of thing evolves over time and could take months, or even years.

I hope you are inclined to reading. There is a long post I'd like you to read. From that post I'd like you to start feeding the fish you have, differently. Here's the post: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition


Anemonefish are omnivores. They require green algae and meaty products from the ocean, not the land. Begin by reading the food labels closely. Switch as much as you can over to frozen and frozen gelled foods. Make sure ingredients are from the sea, not the land or mixed with land products, like wheat. Start feeding at least twice a day, three times if you can. The feedings should be smaller but as frequent as you can. These fish eat 'all day' and throughout the day. Their digestive tracks are dependent upon a slow steady stream of food, not large single meals. I feed my fish 5 times a day; nitrates are below 10, though I don't care about nitrates.

If you are unsure that the frozen food comes from the ocean/sea, ask the supplier (send e-mails). Mysis are often freshwater pods because the saltwater mysis are much more expensive to harvest and can't be easily grown (they are cannibals). A marine fish never saw a freshwater mysis in its life and shouldn't be fed that on any kind of regular basis (no more than 1 or 2 feedings out of very 21). Rinsing is very good.

Your nuisance nitrates, etc. can come from food products using wheat, wheat gluten, and land products. Since the marine fish doesn't digest these, it goes through their digestive track and into the tank. There, the bacteria eat it and create more waste nitrogen products. No sense in feeding fish what they won't digest. In addition, large meals of undigestable foods with the land fats (marine fish can't utilize the land fats) can lead to internal disorders that take years to show themselves).

The best way to tackle an intestinal disorder is feeding medication to the fish. Since the fish has stopped eating, this becomes a bit of a problem. You should acquire the foods that are medicated and medicines that go into food, so that if the fish does eat you can be prepared with these on hand. Do some more reading: Strange Excrement from Fish -or- How to be a Super Pooper Snooper

I would want to de-worm the fish and treat with Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fish at the same time. Double the initial dose of the Maracyn Two (i.e., double what is recommended on the package for the first dose). Ideally you want to obtain the Jungle medication and some Praziquantel for food additions, and some Praziquantel for use in the QT water with hopes you can convince the intestinal parasites to back off enough to let the fish eat again. When the fish eats again, feed with the medicated (and proper) foods. Directions for the Praziquantel are given in the above link.

Add vitamin, immune boosters, and fats supplements to the feedings. See this link (I know. . .more reading!): Fish Immune Boosters

Good luck!

[King_Aero]

Wow. Very good info. Thank you very much. I did start pouring over the stickies last night and I just scratched the surface. Like I say, I'll get more pictures posted to thread tonight when I get home. I have some edible medicine for internal parasites which I can try when she starts to eat. The first thing I'll do is prepare the QT again with Maracyn2 and prazi pro, get her in it. Hopefully, she'll start to eat again with some time. My concern with the protrusion is whether its a blockage or something from my poor feeding habits.

[leebca]

Unfortunately, the blockage can be that. Most likely the parasites are out of control. I can get a sense of what is happening by a good photograph.

Read the label of the medication you have. It must contain Praziquantel in a significant percentage and you'd like it to contain the other two Jungle medications, too. You need to get three different meds into the fish, which the Jungle product contains.

[King_Aero]

I have several jungle products... so I think it has the acriflavine (sp?) too.

[leebca]

The 'three' you want are:
Praziquantel
Metronidazole
Levamisole

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

I wasn't able to get Maracyn2 for SW because the store that had them were past their expiry date. I found Maracyn 2 and Maracyn at another store for freshwater fish, would this work as well? I was a bit leary so I didn't get them. The active ingredients looked different and wasn't sure if I should use them. I found a similiar product by API Aquarium Pharmaceuticals that has two active ingredients - Metronidazole and praziquantel. It claims to be for general use. I also picked up from the same company the E.M. Erythromycin for anti-bacterial medication, erythromycin being the only active ingredient. I'll definately use the first one, since it has the ingredients you suggest. Should I double up like with the Maracyn 2?

My other question is about using multiple medications. I'm going to setup the QT with the metronidazole and praiquantel but is there anything else I should add? Any worries about mixing medications?

Thanks for your help.. picture is coming soon.

[King_Aero]

Here is a photo. Let me know if you need a better one. You can see the area behind her pectoral fin and her protruding vent.

[leebca]

Most marine fish bacterial infections are caused by Gram Negative bacteria. Erythromycin stops Gram Positive bacteria. You need an antibiotic that stops Gram Negative bacteria -- first. If that doesn't work, you switch to the other.

Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish has an appetite stimulant in it which, in your fish's case may help. However, for killing the proper bacteria, Maracyn Two for Freshwater fishes is okay to use. Both contain the same Gram Negative stopping antibiotic. Normally I'd say either one for Marine or Freshwater fishes is okay, but this fish needs the edge of having an appetite stimulant. Do your best.

I see now what it is you are seeing (i.e. the better photo). I would estimate that internal parasites is high on the list coupled with non-digestible foods. The fish may have internal organ problems -- fat around the liver and kidneys -- where it shouldn't. Its life will likely be shorten by this long term low stress (food coupled with parasites).

My Anemonefish has lived for 18 years now. So they can live a very long time in captivity.

I am only sure about Maracyn Two. You can use it with the other medications in the water and/or being fed to the eating fish. Anything else you should go by what is recommended by the manufacturer.

Don't double the dose of any other antibiotic. I am sure that Maracyn Two can be doubled with no ill effect (on the fish -- it drives the bacteria crazy!).

[King_Aero]

Do you think that I can use the erythromycin with the pranziquantel and the metronidazole? Or should I swap out the water and use just the eryth? I put five pellets of Jungle's Anti-Bacteria food (purple bottle) and I only saw two in there, however I didn't witness her eating it. Hopefully, she did.

Thanks again for your help.

[leebca]

Although I can't give you a certain answer, I would suspect the Erythromycin would be okay with the other meds. I'd rather have the approval of the supplier/manufacturer.

You can test some of it in a cup of the QT water and see if you see any adverse reaction (like a precipitation) before putting it into the QT water.

Keep trying the food!

[King_Aero]

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier; I went to the manufacture and they say it can be used together. d'OH. I did test first, but I now have both in the QT with the recommended dosages. Hopefully, this stuff can take hold of her problem and allow her to eat, perhaps once she starts eating she will be partly out of the woods.

So if she survives this episode and I get her on a healthy track. Can/will she lead a normal fish live, however shortened life span due to this episode?

Do you have any tricks on getting a sick fish to eat?

[leebca]

When/If healed and healthy, the fish will live well, but still a shortened lifespan. The fat deposits and other variations in diet don't correct themselves. A marine fish has no means of dealing with land and freshwater products, especially those that cause disorders.

The Maracyn Two for Marine Fish has that appetite stimulant in it. It may or may not help.

Fishes that don't eat are under stress. The only thing to do is remove as many of the stressors as you can and given the proper treatment, may get ahead of the weight loss and get the fish to eat.

Try more tempting foods like live, clams, and scallop bits. Garlic juice has never been proven to stimulate the appetite, but it does 'agitate' the fish. It is worth a try as is most anything. Do a water change after putting anything into the QT water and remember to replace removed water with water properly medicated.

[King_Aero]

One thing that I know to be stressing her is not being with her mate. The male seem quite unhappy with her missing too, but he did eventually sleep last night. I don't think the female slept at all. I'll reread the stress information you have in a sticky note. I think its a waiting game now. I'll continue with the therapy and convincing her to eat.

Thanks again for the information. Its been a big help.

[vaporize]

King_Aero, good to see you here, hopefully Lee provided you with more information than your previous quest.

One more thing that I learnt from Lee prior is that you might want to try using vitamin B12 to stimulate appetite, for newly arrived fish that does not eat, I have around 70% success rate.

[King_Aero]

Thanks vaporize. This forum is like pay dirt for information. I've learned as much in my determination to help my fish then setting up my system to begin with!

Awesome, I'll give that a try. Where and what do you use for vitamin B12? I'm hoping I can find something local.

[King_Aero]

Hey Lee,

I have a couple of questions for you. Today, she seems slightly better. The vent is not as protruded and she'll look at food slightly interested. I did a 25% water change, and added a second dose of Erythromycin as per the directions. I've lowered the salinity slightly as well it is sitting at 1.022. Tomorrow, I'll give another dose of Metronidazole and praziquantel as per the instructions and lower the salinity a bit more. I think I should target 1.018.

I bought some Maracyn 2 for FW. Should I add it at this point? I know its okay to add Maracyn 2 with the prazi and the Erythromycin. Since Mardel's Maracyn is just Erythromycin and its okay to use Maracyn 1 & 2 concurrently the only worry is whether it can be used with Metronidazole.

I also added some Seachem Reef Plus that is a vitamin supplement hoping it will help since it has B12 in it.

Thanks again!

[leebca]

The effects of drugs change with salinity. Do not lower the specific gravity below 1.018

Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes has an appetite stimulant in it and it is compatible with the Gram Positive antibiotics. Adding the Maracyn Two at twice the initial recommended dose is okay, with the other drugs is also okay.

Once the fish starts eating allow the QT water to reduce in medications for internal parasites as you do water changes.