[bguile]

Hi Lee,

I need your help in hopes to understand this process better. I hope this is the right place to post this in case it would be beneficial to others.

On last night, I purchased some fish from my LFS to add to my quarantine while I await the cycle of my display tank. I decided I was going to follow your acclimation procedures and FW dip said fish. I purchased a Lamark's Angel, a Royal Gramma, and two Green Chromis. I purchased the Gramma and Chromis as the first fish to dip as "practice" before dipping what was my prized fish, the Lamark. Not that I would recklessly harm any fish, but the other two (or three) aren't as hard to come by as the angel. So I printed out and followed your steps in "A Fish Quarantine Process" and followed everything to the T. Once I got to the FW Dip part, I began following the steps in that article also. Prior prep work was done to have all needed equipment on hand.

I began preparing the dip and adjusting the temp and pH to that of the QT as stated. It took a little while to get it right but eventually I did and checked both just before dipping the fish. I dipped the Gramma first and pretty much watched him the entire 30 minutes as I was quite nervous. At some points, he stopped moving but was breathing calmly so I figured he was still ok. At the 30th minute, I removed him and rinsed just as in the instructions and released him in the QT. He's doing fine today.

I started a new bath and dipped the chromis together since they came from the same tank. Today they are also fine. At this time I was feeling comfortable with the dip and prepared a new bath for the angel. I dipped him and watched him quite a bit over the first couple minutes and he seemed to be fine with it. I then checked after every five minutes as stated. Around the 20th minute I checked and he was doing fine, but at the 25th minute I had come back to find him laying on his side motionless. I then quickly filled my 3rd container with rinse water from the QT, drained the colander and dipped him in the rinse. There was then some jerky movement and he started breathing again with the first looking like a gasp. I pulled him from that and placed him into the QT and he sank straight to the bottom.

I watched him for a few minutes and saw that his breathing was seeming to improve from extended "gasps" to what appeared to be normal patterns but he was still not moving. I then used my stirring spoon to lightly prod him and he moved about a little then laid down on a piece of pvc in the tank. I figured I'd leave him be the rest of the night and check on him in the morning. To my dismay, he was dead.

What could have gone wrong? I did everything as stated just like I did for the other 3 fish. I even recalibrated my pH meter just before the Angel just to make sure nothing was wrong. I looked at the temp and pH after I got him into the tank. The temp was fine, but the pH looked way low although I wasn't sure if the readings were proper since they looked that way following the other two dips and the numbers would change once the solution was stirred up again. Please help me to understand what could've gone wrong. I'm feeling quite discouraged about this process seeing that I just killed a fish I've been waiting months to find, but I want to do the right thing for fish that get added later. Thanks.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the loss. I think in the several hundred fishes I have FW dipped, I lost one -- a Goldflake Angel. From the start there was a problem.

Usually, fairly early on, a fish will let it be known if it doesn't like or can't tolerate the FW dip/bath. A few fish don't, hence the requirement to check on the fish.

You didn't mention, but you were using the Methylene Blue added to the FW? How much of it did you add? Any idea of the age of the Methylene Blue?

It seems that there is a suspected pH concern. This can and sometimes happens in FW. The pH is not held constant by any kind of buffering and the water can shift. Still, it should hold. That is the underlying reason for a check just before use.

You don't mention, but did you also follow the acclimation process before doing the FW dip? What were the water parameters of your LFS water?

[bguile]

Originally Posted by leebca

You didn't mention, but you were using the Methylene Blue added to the FW? How much of it did you add? Any idea of the age of the Methylene Blue?

Yes. I was using Methylene Blue. My container holds 3000mL of water so I had about 8 drops in with the bottle totally inverted. The purchase of it was probably a year or so ago. I only opened it previously to look at the color of the solution, but never or dont remember using it.

Originally Posted by leebca

You don't mention, but did you also follow the acclimation process before doing the FW dip? What were the water parameters of your LFS water?

Yes I did follow those the acclimation process before the dip. I adjusted the QT water to match that of the bag. Salinity was a perfect match at 1.026 and I adjusted the pH up to 8.14. The bag was floated 15-20 min before I started adding water. I estimated the bag about 2 cups (500mL) of water so I added 5mL to the bag about every 5 min or so for over an hour. I had to go take care of some other issues so I left the open bag floating for about another 2 hours. It was when I returned that I prepared the new bath and completed the dip. Thanks for your quick assistance in this matter.

[leebca]

Was the FW bath aerated (diaphram pump and air stone) or being mixed in any way?

[bguile]

No sir. If it wasn't said in your article, I didn't use it. The only mixing was done with a slotted spoon manually to mix the water, MB, and sodium carbonate to prepare the bath. I bought a new box of pure arm and hammer baking soda the other day and baked it for 40 minutes at 350 degrees and stored it in a loc-tite container. I used that to adjust the pH up. If I overshot the pH, I threw the bath out and started over.

[leebca]

I don't find anything wrong with your procedure. You've piqued my interest.

Can you fill me in on the history of the fish, some more. . .
How long did the LFS have it?
Was it eating? What was it eating?
What are the parameters of your LFS's water the fish was in?
Have you actually seen how your LFS acclimates new fish into their system? (Not what they say they do, but have you seen it yourself?) How do they acclimate new fish into their system?

At the 20 minute mark, are you sure there was nothing wrong with the fish. Did you look at it closely through the blue?

[bguile]

Originally Posted by leebca

I don't find anything wrong with your procedure. You've piqued my interest.

Can you fill me in on the history of the fish, some more. . .

Sure. I'm willing to give as much information as needed. I would like to be able to continue ANY quarantine in confidence in the future.

Originally Posted by leebca

How long did the LFS have it? Was it eating? What was it eating?

I was told that it had just come in that day. Which appeared to be true based on their procedures I've witnessed before for new shipments. Seeing that it was new, I'm sure it hadn't been fed for the day.

Originally Posted by leebca

What are the parameters of your LFS's water the fish was in? Have you actually seen how your LFS acclimates new fish into their system? (Not what they say they do, but have you seen it yourself?) How do they acclimate new fish into their system?

I didn't test or ask for their parameters in the store, but the bag water parameters were: 79.3 deg F; 1.026 sp.g; 8.14pH. I would imagine their system's parameters aren't too much different as the first fish were only bagged maybe 2 hours before my first test. The only acclimation I've seen take place is by drip. They open the baggies into the styrofoam shipping container and begin the drip.

Originally Posted by leebca

At the 20 minute mark, are you sure there was nothing wrong with the fish. Did you look at it closely through the blue?

It was at the 20 minute mark that I looked and noticed something was wrong. He was on his side at the bottom of the colander with very slowed breathing. At the 5, 10, and 15 min points the fish looked fine. There wasn't any erratic behavior and breathing seemed to be relaxed.

I looked briefly for any signs of splashed water or anything to indicate the fish was over stressed and didn't see anything I'd notice, but I can't be totally sure as I was then stressed at that time.

[leebca]

I moved this dialog into its own thread.

I can appreciate your own stress. More questions. . .Where does your LFS get their fish?

You had problems with putting a Nox Angel & Auriga through a FW dip before. Did those fish come from the same LFS? Were they in the LFS tank before you acquired those? Do you remember if they had just come in too? Any chance you'd know where your LFS got them or where they came from?

[bguile]

I'm not sure where they get their fish. I'll have to see if anyone can tell me during another visit. I am not there often because it's 30 min away, but I'll see if I can find out. When you say where, are you asking for a distributor, a location, or something else?

The Nox Angel and the Auriga were done a year or so ago without the knowledge of your article and what I understand now about SW chemistry, so in hind sight those dips were destined to fail. Also they did not come from the same LFS as I was living in MD then and had a closer more convenient LFS. I'm not sure where in particular they got theirs either.

I typically do not purchase fish that had just come in particularly if they've already been put into the LFS' system because I know they could be still stressed from transport. I guess I was caught at a weak moment because I had been looking for a smaller and beautiful one for a while. I don't often see them that way when I do see them.

[leebca]

When I say 'where' I mean the location. I don't think they'll likely tell you the actual distributor, but give it a try. I'd like to know are they doing their own imports? are their fishes coming in from NYC or LA or some other US location. Are they getting the fish from an importer that obtained this fish or a middleman who got it upstream from an importer or another middleman? (This last is the most important question to get answered -- no proper names are necessary to get this answer).

I'm beginning to think that this particular fish had gone through too much in a short time. Usually I recommend not acquiring a fish from an LFS for at least 2 weeks. Two weeks in the care of the LFS will usually avoid about 30% of the acclimation problems, them getting the fish to eat and settled. An eating fish is usually one that is more than a third acclimated and has a very large potential for going the final steps into a home aquarium.

In the 'old days' most of the cyanide captured fishes would die during the first 2-3 weeks in captivity. (Some could still die months later, but a large percentage died in the first 2-3 weeks). This is where the original 2 week waiting period came from.

What we don't know about the Lamarck is whether it was acclimated to captive life or not. We don't know if it was eating in captivity or would eat if given the chance. We don't know if there was another middleman or if the LFS was getting the fish directly form the importer.

I may have a better idea of its age, if you could tell me its total length. The adults of this species and most Angel species are difficult to acclimate. Yet they come in with the most adverse conditions that are best served by a long FW bath.

A long FW bath will not usually bring an unacclimatized fish to its deathbed, but it will accelerate its demise. That is, removal of a fish from any treatment if the fish shows stress will usually not cause its death. So at the 15 minute mark it would have been essential for you to have been sure the fish was okay to go another 5. Also, as maybe I've mentioned before, if they get beyond 10 they are usually okay with the length of time.

I've worked with fishes directly imported to me; I've worked with fishes directly from the importer/wholesaler; and I've worked with fishes from LFSs. By far the most risk free acquisition is the fish that has acclimated the long distance to the LFS system and is still alive a couple weeks later. During the import process the least able to acclimate fishes fall by the wayside. Those with stamina and ability to acclimate are the last to go; those that have no or very little acclimation issues can live for decades in the home aquarium. It's a matter of degree. For the sake of your pocketbook and heart, you want the LFS to take the risk for 2 weeks on an unacclimatized fish.

Let me know what more you might find out.

[bguile]

I will keep you updated. Thanks!

I do have another question that may end up in it's own thread, but I'll ask it here. If this was a case of too much acclimation stress, what would you suggest in the situation I mentioned earlier?

I understand that leaving the fish at the LFS for up to 2 weeks leaves the risk in their hands, but what to do when you've researched a particular fish and finally after a few weeks or months even, you happen to show up the day it arrives at the LFS? I think in most cases it's a good possibility that fish will not be there in 2 weeks since the LFS is not as interested in finding a good, responsible, aquarist home for it as much as they are in selling the fish. I think this is what (at least for me anyway) is the main reason for an impulse purchase.

Maybe in these type cases (where I'm willing to take the risk) there should be a different acclimation procedure? Maybe have the QT water match that of the bag with proper mixing into the bag then release the fish into the QT holding off any dipping or medications for at least 2 weeks?

[leebca]

In the early 70's I tried several dozen different acclimation procedures. I even went so far as to keep the fish partly anesthetized, thinking I could stretch out its acclimation and make it tolerable to the fish. I never found anything to overcome the acclimation issues each individual fish has. Whether I took steps/measures or left the fish on its own, didn't improve their survival into captive life. Maybe someday someone will find some proven and reproducible process.

That is to say that, a fish that won't acclimate can't be gotten to acclimate to the best of my knowledge. If you are willing to take the risk of getting a fish less likely to acclimate, then you are in the position of going through the correct procedure with greater losses.

If you take your suggestion, what happens is that the fish enters the QT with a parasite that would have come off with the FW bath. That parasite creates stress on the new fish. If you bath the fish later, the fish then has to be transfered to a sterile QT up and running. This is one possibility, but I never could show it made any difference to acclimation mortality. You see, being infected takes its toll on the fish. IMHO parasites have a more profound negative impact on the fish acclimating, than the FW bath.

You can also forgo the FW bath until the fish is going into the main system. This increases the probability that the fish is carrying a parasite into the main system. If the FW bath didn't get all the parasites, you'd see them show up again during a proper QT process and could then treat the fish there until healthy. But going into the main system, the fish could just bring with the parasites that it could have shed earlier on and be free from.

In the future, about the only thing you could have done differently, given the circumstances of not being able to wait, is to watch the fish constantly while going through the acclimation and bath processes. Still, that would generally have meant the fish would still have died, only a few days later.

Having your QT water with a specific gravity of about 1.019 or 1.020 held at a constant temperature the fish is used to (customized to where the fish lived when caught) or if unknown, then at 76F (even if that takes a chiller). The sp. gr. is attainable, but most won't want to put a chiller on a QT.

All the above will do is help the fish conserve energy. It doesn't give the fish any extra opportunity to acclimate to captive life, except on the rare occasion where the problem is physiological. In this latter case, the lower salinity may give the internal chemistries an opportunity to adjust better.

Other than providing the best possible environment -- processing only one fish at a time so fish don't have to contend with neighbors/tank mates -- and the best water quality and care, acclimation is pretty much left up to the fish.

It may be better understood what kind of 'average' loss percentages we're talking about in the system. After the fish is caught by the collector and sent to the exporter, about 10% or less are lost. The exporter looses another 10% waiting to export the fish. The importer or wholesaler receives the fish and suffers about a 15% loss overall in the transportation process. The LFS gets the fish and looses another 10% during the first two weeks. Then the home aquarist will usually lose a fish to acclimation issues within the next 6 months (some claim up to a year). That may be as high as 15% depending upon conditions, but a good aquarist should be able to keep it to 10% or less.

If you interject yourself ahead of the LFS, then you will pick up that estimated loss (15% or less) plus the usual loss in the marine home aquarist (about another 10% or less) in the first 5 months. I would guess you are in the place of accepting about a 25% fish loss during the first 5 or 6 months taking on the LFS loss and the home aquarist losses. This could be on the day you acquire the fish or a few months later.

I have seen very weak fish come through the system. Maybe the collector or exporter had to hold them longer than expected. They were on the verge of death. I can closely inspect the fish with microscope and fish samples and if 'clean' from what I can see, I put the fish through a special process to see if it will recover. Still, the fish has to be a candidate for acclimating -- I can't change that. I don't give out this process because I don't want any aquarist to turn into a fish hospital or care unit to encourage the collection and transport of sensitive fishes.

The figures for 'exotic' or more sensitive marine fishes are even worse. The Regal Angel for instance ends up with up to an 85% mortality from capture to the first 6 months. It's these kinds of figures that I have a sense about and from which I recommend certain fishes (like the Regal Angel) not be kept until they are tank bred.

I don't know how much the above helps.

[bguile]

It does help in several different ways, thanks!

I did notice something you mentioned about lowering QT salinity to 1.019 and temp to 76F. Do you recommend running a QT at these parameters as a standard during the entire process? I can't remember that I've ever seen any specific guidelines so I assumed that you'd keep it close to the display tank parameters.

[leebca]

No. I have/give no recommendation about sp. gr. or temp for the QT unless there is a specific treatment which is connected to either or both.

In general, the QT should mimic the final display tank as much as possible to reduce the affects of another (final) acclimation period. The fish should be very comfortable with the water in both when it is time to move into the display.