[bguile]

Hi Lee, me again!

I was at my LFS on yesterday picking up the Jungle Anti Parasite food you mentioned in your "Pooper Snooper" thread when I happened to notice that Kordon had a new packaging for their Methylene Blue solution. The one on the left is the one I've used previously in my FW DIP problem thread:






The solution still appears to be the same, the only difference is that the new packaging mentions that it can be used as a dip. I went to their website for more detailed instructions and found this:

For use as a dip for treatment of fungus or external parasitic protozoans and cyanide poisoning:

(a) Prepare a nonmetallic container of sufficient size to contain the fish to be treated by adding water similar to the original aquarium.

(b) Add 5 teaspoons (24.65 ml) per 3 gallons of water. This produces a concentration of 50 ppm. It is not recommended that the concentration be increased beyond 50 ppm.

(c) Place fishes to be treated in this solution for no longer than 10 seconds.

(d) Return fish to original aquarium .

How does this differ in regards to your recommendation for FW dip? I note their suggestion is a dip in full salinity with a much heavier ppm than yours recommends, but what about the amount of time suggested? I've also learned from past mishaps that a hyposaline solution makes a medication stronger, for lack of better terms, which is why I believe your recommendation is much less. As you can see, with my flurry of posts lately, that I am very excited and interested in learning as much as I can for the good health of my fish.

[leebca]

Your observations and conclusions are very good. You're learning a lot.

I have been blamed for the death of more than one fish with the FW bath I propose with MB. They blamed me for suggesting they add MB. As you can see, it can be safely used at much higher concentrations.

Also like you observed, the low salinity (FW) of the bath and the low MB concentration goes hand-in-hand. Also factored in is the time. The low level of MB is suitable for an extended bath. The length of time I use was based on dips and baths I experimented with in the '70's. I used to import fish. They came bagged together, all more or less uniformly diseased.

I analyzed the dip water and found that with increased time, there was an increase in the number of parasites that were removed. It seems to level off at about the 25-30 minute mark. That is, going beyond 30 minutes did not achieve any noticeable positive results.

My experience is that a 10 second dip in a higher concentration of MB doesn't get the job done is all cases. One thing that doing the dip/bath in FW achieves is that it can alleviate the fish of some of the Marine Velvet parasites. It doesn't cure, but it is a way of seeing if the fish has Marine Velvet (by looking at the organisms collected at the bottom of the bath).

MB used to be our main 'help' to fish caught with cyanide. Theoretically it helps, but I can't say it saved any fish I know of. Still, the chemistry is true for that statement. As for fungus. . .MB is not the treatment of choice for true marine fungus. There are many marine diseases that look like fungus to the unaided eye. Thus there are two groups: the true fungus and the 'others.' If the marine fish has true fungus it is likely going to die. About the only thing one can do for that is to swab the area with betadiene and treat with a very active antibiotic. MB is a means to treat the 'other' fungal-like conditions.

Well. . .I guess I've gone beyond your questions.

[bguile]

No problem. The more we know the better. I guess it would help to know that sometimes we receive a fish that has a fungus and no chance of survival. I know I have gotten fish that died days after I got him and for the life of me couldn't figure out why it died. I later found out about cyanide poisoning in use during collection and the symptoms matched pretty well to what I was seeing.

Going back on topic, their suggestion of a bath uses full salinity. Even if the recommended ppm was halved or even quartered do you think it would have as good or better effect than the FW dip? They also utilize or suggest a mixture of a 3ppm concentration that lasts for several days in remedy of external parasites. Is this as effective you think?

I thought I read somewhere that a FW dip was not a cure for any disease (for several different reasons) but just a measure used to possibly identify what you're up against. Am I mistaken? If not, are there any diseases or pathogens that wouldn't show themselves during a 6-8 week quarantine that could allow us to skip a FW dip? The reason I ask is because I have now lost all of the fish that I performed a dip on and with it my confidence in being able to properly administer the treatment.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the losses. Post mortem (fresh) examination (necropsy) is one very useful tool for determining what and why some fish don't make it. Even (cyanide) poisoning can be seen in necropsy. The true fungal infections can also be visually identified under a microscope.

The use of the MB in the FW bath was not to kill off any parasites/pathogens. Its purpose is to keep the fish relaxed. It also has some positive effects in the reduction of ammonia poisoning. The real effect is the FW bath.

Pathogens that can't handle any FW are those that attach to the exterior of the fish. They can range in size from a sesame seed to smaller than the period in this sentence. Look at the bath water for evidence of what is removed. If using the unaided eye, there is usually something there for many of the wild-caught fishes. Using a microscope there is much more evidence. The FW bath is a means to identify Marine Velvet when in doubt. However, other than this I know of no other disease ID value.

Certain parasites (like Marine Ich) can't be cured by a FW bath (very unfortunately). This and many other pathogen/parasites embed themselves into the fish, below the mucous layer and often below the top layer of skin. They are protected from the effects of FW which, if they weren't so protected, would be their sure doom.

The benefits of the FW bath (in addition to getting rid of the attached pathogens) is that it can rid the gills of many parasites where the parasites are not as well protected AND which can't be seen by the hobbyist.

The FW bath cleanses the fish of these things which can and do get by the quarantine process by unwary hobbyists.

Skipping the bath is an option IF the hobbyist is experienced aquarist (more of an aquarist than a hobbyist) -- see the Glossary: Glossary of FOWLR Terms. In this case the aquarist can spot these things that are very subtle. If you are the kind of aquarist that will spend hours in front of your QT watching the fish until it isn't afraid of you and comes out so you can clearly see every abnormality AND you know enough to know what is or isn't abnormal, then the FW bath can be reserved for therapeutic means rather than a prophylactic procedure.

I will add though that, after more than 39 years of quarantining marine fish, I still use the FW bath procedure I've written about as a prophylactic procedure during acclimation. Fish losses are not because of the bath procedure as I've previously written. Actually, I think some fish have been very much helped by the bath at the outset because it gets rid of the pathogens that are tapping into the fish's energy reserve. These pathogens/parasites create stress on a fish trying to acclimate and, we know that a stressed fish doesn't acclimate well.

It is important though to only put one fish through the process at a time.

[bguile]

In the case of the use of MB in a FW dip, do you think the purpose has been changed by the use of a 50ppm solution for less than 10 seconds? This may be cause for an email to Kordon but I would be led to believe that the purpose is to kill some external or gill parasite at such a high concentration.

[leebca]

It is best to separate the seller of a product's opinion from the academia purpose of the ingredient.

Methylene Blue (according to the academics) does the following:
Cyanide anti toxic
Antifungal agent
Monogenetic trematodes
External protozoacide
Respiratory distress

The first group of uses stipulates that the fish be kept in a bath for 0.15 ppm for 5 days then more added every 3 days to hold the ppm OR 1.-3. ppm for a max of 5 days.

A long duration bath formula is 3 ml of a 1% solution in 10 liters of water for 5 days.

50 ppm is inhibitory

Most value is reported for freshwater fishes

Fit the above into the Kordon recommendation. I don't know the value of a 10 second dip in that short of time, but we do know it doesn't kill enough of Marine Ich and subsurface parasites to totally rid the fish of them.

I can project that any surface pathogen that fits into one of the above mentioned categories would be removed from the fish, but to what degree?

Kordon may have data to prove what it does or doesn't do at the recommended use, but whether they will share that is another topic. Still, it is worth an ask, IMO. Just be sure to ask for the test results of BOTH the successes and failures. You don't want a Crest toothpaste answer.