[Ajmags13]

HEy guys this is my first post on these forums and from what I have read there is a weath of information here. I have a current crysis going on in my tank and I hope someone can help me its very distressing. I hate to have that hopeless feeling and I hate to see the fish suffer in any way but here goes.

I will give my tanks history since its basicly a new tank.

My Tank is a 200 gallon Fish only with an ETS Protien Skimmer and a 12 Watt UV strelizer (did not turn either on until tank cycled). I cycled it with about 7 or 8 Damsel fish that all seem to be doing great. After the tank cycled I added my first fish, a large maroon clown (gold stripes) He was a beautiful fish and seemed to be doing great. So a week later I added a HAwaiin Trigger (black fins) after adding the Trigger a few days passed and my Maroon clown stoped eating (now this was a fish who loved to eat) . The fish had no visible signs of any disease he actully looked very healthy. 2 days after he stoped eating his fins began to fray and about 2 days after that he was dead. It happend fast and I tried to treat with Melafix and it did not help. I was thinking he had fin rot brought on by the stress of adding the trigger who was very active in the tank BUT not agressive by any means.I monitored them for hours and the trigger never messed with the maroon clown. After another week and no problems I went and bought a Clown Trigger. I thought that would be a better addition to the Hawiian and they seem to get along just fine they actully look like they enjoy each others company,that may sound weird but hey who knows what they think heh. Anyway The Hawaiin trigger about 1 1/2 weeks ago starts getting these blotches on his body did not look like Ich but the way I can describe it is blotches about 1/8 of an inch in diameter (not circular) that looked like a scrape or a slight white abrasion. The a day later he had a few more. Thing is the fish is still eating great. He seems to swim back and forth alot and is bothered by the problem. I started treating with more Hydro Plex and its not working at all, at least I have not seen any change for the better. Then the next problem, I would say about 2 days ago I wake up and turn on the lights and both the triggers are covered in Ich. So the Hawaiian has all those blotches and now he also has ich and Im at a loss. I was reluctent to use copper but if I have to I will . I have seen mention of cupramine and I may give that a try.

I feel this is getting to a critical stage with My HAwiian I dont want to lose him. I want something thats going to work fast and wont put a strain on my Bio filter. I do not have a QT (i know I know) but im learning my lesson the hard way. I have been keeping fish for 20 years Mostly African's and I have kept a few marine tanks and never had an issue like this . Meaning I never had an Ich outbreak or any disease outbreak for that matter. I jneed to do something fast and I am planing on getting a QT tank very soon. Also is it possible my HAwaiin is having issues with 2 different disesases ? Are those blotches caused from the ich. I just went to look at him and the blotches have gotten larger and more numerous.

I will take this entire tank apart if I have too but right now trying to get thesee guys out of the tank is not possible without a major undertaking (lots of rock in the tank, Not live rock). I will have to do that in the next 2 weeks and I will have some time to do this in a few weeks.

I guess my question is how can I get these guys healthy and what will work fast ? Thanks for taking the time to read my story anu help would be greatly appreciated

[Ajmags13]

oops forgot to add I raised the tank temp to 82 degrees also hoping to help with the ich

[Ajmags13]

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

Well I just read this post by Lee and it was fantastic.

I see that temp does not play a factor as I thought when raising my temp. I think at the current time im going to treat with cupramine and in 2 weeks or after 14 days Im going to take a few days to clean the tank and do at least a 70 to 80% water change. I wish I could do that now but I can't.

Also If I use cupramine how long before I can use the UV strelizer since im sure some of it will be in the tank after the water change. Will running the skimmer get this out to where I can start uop the UV again ?

[bguile]

Hi AJ,

WELCOME TO REEFLAND

It seems that you have a lot going on there. You're reading of Lee's Marine Ich article is a good start to finding out what you're up against. Although it sounds like you are also dealing with Marine Velvet so also check out that article.

[leebca]

After you are finished treating with Cupramine, then you remove the copper from the QT. After that, you can turn on the UV.

The diagnosis, as beguile has alluded to, doesn't seem fixed yet. Copper treatment will take care of both Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. I appreciate you having provided so much details.

It is best to kill off the parasites on the fish and in your marine system, then quarantine everything before putting it into the marine system/display in order to not have to go through this in the future.

Let us know if you have any other questions.

[Ajmags13]

Thanks for the responses guys , and the great advice.

Got some good news, I hope. I woke up this morning and after three days of seeing my fish infested with Ich, I turned on the lights this morning and the Ich was non existent, not one spot. All those blemishes on my Hawaiin trigger are gone also I gues that rules out velvet, correct ? Could he have been scratching at night which caused the blemishes ? Either way that Cupramine did its job so I guess now I'll do 14 more days then run my carbon/ Skimmer and a week after that Ill turn my UV back on. Is it normal to see such fast results from the cupramine ? I put 1ml per ten gallons yesterday at about noon and tested 2 times, once yesterday, and once this morning, and both times I did not register any copper with the API test . The water tests crystal clear is that possible ? I did put a drop of cupramin in the tester to make sure it was working at all and it was. That being said how do I know what the copper level is in my tank if the test kit cant read it.

[leebca]

If you read through the post: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts you'll see how the appearance/disappearance of the white spots means very little. It is just one point in the parasite's life that the human can see with the unaided eye. It's still there and it will take days for the copper to do its job even though you may or may not see anything.

[Ajmags13]

Ok I feel like a Ich expert now thanks to your help and qucik responses .

Its been 5 days and there is no visible sign of the ich or at least the stage we can see. I am going to continue to treat for another 10 days or so and then remove the cupramine. Its very nice to see the fish no longer struggleing. My Hawaiin trigger has stoped scratching and is much much calmer and my clown trigger is doing great also. My Hawaiin went from eating like a maniac to eating like a little less of a maniac . Which I think is a good sign. Both triggers like to eat so rather than try and feed them one piece of food at a time (which the hawaiin always gets) I feed on different sides of the tank with multiple pieces of food and they have calmed down considerably. One thing I will say about the Hawaiin is I have never seen a trigger eat like this guy does. You can actully hear his jaw snapping completly across the house makes you really respect the power of these fishes jaws extremly powerful.

Oh one other thing I forgot to mention is my water has turned slightly cloudy. Is this due to the treatment ? If so when I stop treating whatsa a good way to clear that up?

[leebca]

Sometimes the Cupramine will cause a slight haze to the water. This should not be a problem. However, if it above this 'subjective limit' then there may be a breakdown of the medicine or an overdose of carbonates in the water. This is assuming this isn't a bacterial bloom from the organics in the water -- To treat with this med the skimmer and UV should be off and both will help control bacteria.

I wish everyone could witness and see what you've described, Ajmags13. Many hobbyists are content to let their fish go through this parasite attack to try and get them immune or just because they can't take them out of the tank. Many hobbyists fail to understand what you've seen -- the fish is truly suffering from the parasite, even if the fish doesn't die. When the parasite is under control, the fish are less stressed and can continue on with thriving rather than surviving.

[Ajmags13]

Well Lee I had a turn for the worse. After things started to look good I noticed the Hawaiin Trigger harrassing the Clown Trigger he must have been doing the same thing with my maroon clown . As soon as I noticed this the Clown trigger began acting sick again. No doubt from the stress. Through all of this the Hawaiin always seemed strong while other fish got sick even though the Hawaiin showed symptoms he was always strong enough to eat and beat on the other fish, I just wished I noticed it sooner. I came to the conclusion the hawaiin was stressing the other fish so bad that he was the culprit. I caught him and brought him back to the LFS and unfortunately my clown trigger soon died. Since my water quality never seemed to be an issue (always tested fine) I will go out and get a few fish to accompany the 5 damsels that originaly cycled the tank.

I started with a lionfish and now Ive created another problem for my self getting him to eat. he shows minimal interst in the food I offer. I started with Krill, then I went to the grocery store and bought flounder cut it to strips and wiggled it. that got his attention fast but once he got near the wiggly flounder he stoped short and wont eat. I guess Ill get some feeder fish so he eats something and eventually wean him to more nutritious foods. I have kept lions before but I was always lucky as they ate whatever I threw in the tank dead or alive lol. Any ideas on feeding Lions ?? Are there any Healthy Live options ? I dont mind spending a bit extra for live food if it is healthy. I have read that feeing feeder fish Marine food and keeping a small ten gallon with them in it was a decent option . Any help would be great.

[leebca]

Feeding live marine life is an option. Like you indicated, you need a separate tank to hold them. AND don't forget to quarantine them. I hope you will be putting your new fish through quarantine.

The Lion will often stop eating in captivity. Some just slowly die. There may still be a stressor you have not accounted for yet. Have you read this to consider other water quality issues? [url=http://www.reefland.com/forum/saltwater-fish-only-aquariums/21726-what-water-quality.html#post156151]What is Water Quality[/url. Just the same, I'd perform a 65% or higher water change.

Live marine feeder fish include small Damsels, Chromis, etc., and almost any marine fish the size of the Lion's mouth or slightly larger. You may find that the Lion might like a hermit crab (removed from its shell), or raw crab meat dangled.

Besides the movement you provide, the fish senses the smell, vibration, and taste of the food, in the water. Water quality does interfere with 'clear sensory readings' in such cases.

[Ajmags13]

Thanks for the response Lee .After trying to get him to eat numerous times I decided to go get some live fish for him to see if he was ok. I went to the LFS and got some red (cant remmebr the name) fish and he went to town as soon as he saw them hit the water he was on them . That made me fel better.

My intensions are to feed live marine fish. I bought a 20 gallon tank to use as a feeder tank and it is currently sitting undr my 200 gal./ Those silver sides frozen fish, are they salt water ? Obviously I cant feed the lion damsels that would get way to expensive. I want to be able to buy a large amount of feeder fish to keep in the 20 gallon and not break the bank.

yes Lee I did a huge water change about 75% and turned on the skimmer but Im going to wait another week before I mess with the UV sterilizer. I want to make sure every bit of Cupramine is out. Maybe ill do another 50% change this weekend then turn it on.

[leebca]

Sounds like you're moving forward. You probably don't really want to have to keep feeding live fish. To start the transition, you might want to feed one of the feeder fish that are dead, then move on to other foods.

Silversides are not a good food. I used to know why -- forgot. Maybe someone else reading this know why.