[bguile]

Lee,

History:
Almost 2 weeks ago I purchased a Golden Angel from an online retailer. I acclimated the fish according to the dealers instructions and placed it into its own QT. The following day I began trying to get the fish to eat at different times with different foods and he wouldn't. On the second day, I tried again. I offered Marine Mysis(d), Formula One and Two pellets dry and soaked in Selcon and Garlic, Bloodworms, and ....Brine shrimp (I know, but I was trying to entice it to eat something ). It still wouldn't eat so I began thinking it has worms so I treated with Maracyn 2 doubling the first dose all the while still trying to get the fish to eat. On the last day of treatment I noticed the Angel had excreted what looked like 3 worms...or pieces of worms. It looked too flat to tell. I was getting excited that I may had finally won a treatment battle.

I added some new carbon to help remove the remaining medication from the water and tried feeding the fish again and he still wouldn't eat. I was contemplating if I needed to do another M2 treatment or move on to something else.

Current situation:
This morning when the lights first came on I thought I'd examine the fish before leaving out for the day and saw a handful of white spots on him which I believed to be ich. While I was out, I was deciding whether to use Hyposalinity or Cupramine for the treatment. I decided Cupramine. When I returned home a few hours later, I looked over the fish again and saw no white spots and I'm thinking; Where did they go? So that's my first question.

My second question is...what else can I do to get the fish to eat? I wanted to try to wait until I could get him eating before starting Cupramine but didn't want to risk the Ich getting out of hand if it already wasn't. Thanks again for your help.

[leebca]

Starting off with one important observation -- Maracyn Two is an antibiotic. It should have no affect on intestinal/internal worms. That is to say, if the fish had worms, it still does.

IF the spots were Marine Ich (that hasn't been decided yet) there is no mystery. The spot is just one short stage in the life cycle of the parasite that we can see with the unaided eye. If it is MI, it hasn't gone away, if that is what you're thinking. You understand the life cycle of MI, right?

A fish not eating is under stress. As I mentioned previously, the stress can be from acclimation or in this case there is a considerable likelihood that there is intestinal worms and/or disease stressors.

Any food choice is okay when trying to get a fish to eat. Try different presentations of the food, not just different kinds of foods. Push some food into a fake coral or bleached dead piece of coral, tie macro algae to a rock, etc. Check out: Food Presentation

[bguile]

I must have misread something then. I thought I had read that Maracyn 2 can be used against internal worms if the fish is not eating. What can I use then since he hasn't eaten yet.

As far as Ich, I am aware and understand the life cycle which is why I'm confused as to where the spots went to. I know it's not gone, just wondering why I can see the spots on the fish in the morning but by afternoon I can't see them anymore.

[leebca]

Praziquantel is used to de-worm fishes by adding it to the water. Originally, it is used in ponds to treat pond fishes. It is best used to cure marine fishes by having the fish swallow it. However, like I wrote in my post on internal parasites, it can be used to de-worm non-eating fishes by putting it into the water.

Some intestinal problems are caused by bacteria and an antibiotic can clear up an internal bacterial infection. Telling the two apart is not too hard -- the fecal matter from the worm infection is usually a strand or long bit and (not always) off color.

[bguile]

I have Prazi Pro and Ultra Cure PX on hand but have already started Cupramine for what I believe is Ich. Should I stop the Cupramine treatment, do a large water change and treat with Prazi first since I've had him now for over 2 weeks and he hasn't eaten yet?

[leebca]

That is a good question. I think Seachem is very responsive to e-mails. I would send an e-mail to Seachem and ask if their Cupramine product can be used in water that you've added Prazi Pro. I would go by their recommendation.

Cupramine can be used with many other meds. I'm unsure if the above is one of them. Please share their response when you get it.

Without knowing the answer (above) to that question, I would choose one or the other based upon what is most adversely affecting the fish right now. This would be something for you to decide. I have no photos and I'm not there to inspect the fish.

[bguile]

Darn! My first post went up in smoke due to problems with spellcheck.
Anyhow....

I have emailed Seachem upon your suggestion and am awaiting their response. I will be sure to post the response once I receive it. Thanks.

I believe the most pressing issue is getting the fish to eat. The ich doesn't appear to be at an advanced stage and has in fact seemed to receed a bit since I started the treatment. I do understand it's life cycle so I am not fooled into believing that it is yet gone. I do hope however, that I hear back from Seachem before the weekend since I am not sure how much time I have left to get the fish eating before malnutrition issues become a factor and sickness becomes irreversible. If I haven't heard back from them by then, I think I will just do a complete water change matching the then current pH and temp. I will also do a complete cleaning of the QT for the ich that's in it's "cystic reproduction" stage (tomont?? Sorry I can't lookup/remember the correct term for this stage..but its the one just before the free swimming stage). What are your thoughts on this process?

I know I haven't included any pictures but I will try to do so later in the day. I could probably include a little video also. He seems to be still energetic and lively, just shows no interest in food. When I sit or stand by the tank observing him he approaches the front glass in curiosity looking straight at me when at first he used to shy away so I think he's starting to get used to me at least.

[bguile]

Within a couple hours I received the following response:

Hello,
Remove the Cupramine before the PraziPro treatment. I would also try to get the fish to eat that will definitely help you. They can be picky fish try using the Entice.
The Entice has been very successful for many stores to get Moorish idols and angels to eat.
Seachem Support
10202
Tech Support

Have you ever heard of this product or used it? I'll look for it while at the LFS later this weekend.

[leebca]

Your idea before hearing back from Seachem was/is a good one. I'd go with that.

A healthy fish from the wild can live without eating for several weeks. A diseased fish has less time.

Entice is a garlic product made to add flvor to the food. I would try garlic if you haven't already. Anything goes in trying to get a fish to eat. But still the biggest factor is stress. A fish under stress it doesn't like or can't handle will usually not eat. This is why I'd go the route you suggested -- very large water change to remove the copper.

[bguile]

I have done the water change and treated with Prazi Pro so right now it's just a waiting game hoping that the angel will excrete any worms within the next couple days and start eating.

I have noticed some type of object at the bottom of the QT that I have been unable to identify. I originally thought it might have been a piece of pellet food that was blackened by the copper but I have seen it after I removed all copper from the tank, so it may be some type of excrement. Its small about the size of Formula One pellet and looks to have a velvet like texture. Any idea what that could be??

[leebca]

No idea, unless it's an uneaten and decaying pellet.

[bguile]

I don't think it could be because the number of them seems to increase. Unless they are coming from somewhere that I'm totally missing. Yesterday I tried feeding Mysid after I did the water change and I was sure to vacuum all detritus from the bottom of the tank.

Also, I do have Kent Garlic Extreme on hand which is some strong stuff. They only recommend a drop or two as not to overwhelm the fish's sense of smell. I have tried soaking different foods in it and to this point, no response. The suggestion for the Entice product is to use as liberally as necessary. It is just a lighter concentration of the garlic used in the Garlic Extreme or does it contain some other stimulants as well?

[leebca]

The Entice formula has been kept fairly secret. I suspect it contains vitamin B12 and potentially other 'reported' appetite stimulants, along with smell-taste enhancers. I don't hold much store in such products. If you read the label they say/make promises as to what they are willing to stand behind. In the case of Entice, the product maker say it is a flavoring (and nothing more).

Anything is worth a try, although you can go broke (and crazy) trying everything.

[bguile]

Ha! I'm already half past crazy, I guess broke would be next. Since there's not much cost to the item, I'm willing to give it a try. If not this time, maybe it will come in handy with some other acclimation down the road. I'm also going to try some of your suggestions from the Presentation thread so I'm off to find some coral skeletons.

[bguile]

Well, as expected the Entice didn't work either. I did find this at the bottom of the QT today. I am currently treating the tank with Prazi Pro.



This is what I also saw a couple weeks back during the Maracyn 2 treatment. This object isn't solid but has a semi-transparent white outer skin. Is this an internal worm? I examined the Angel further and also saw some type of white cyst-looking object at the base of the pectoral fins. It almost looks like this is where these "worms" are coming from. It's sticking out from under the fin similar to the head of a pimple on human skin.

[leebca]

I can't tell much from the photo, but if the 'worms' are located in the skin, then you are not dealing with the intestinal kind of worm. It could still be that the medicine is slowly working, though.

One approach is using Praziquantel in a bath to handle these 'exterior' kinds of worms. Seeing as you've done this (in a fashion) you would need to repeat this treatment or continue it 7 days from when you first used it. If there is no success, the next steps would be either a FW bath or Formalin bath, each of which will be very stressful to this fish.

These worms can easily cause the fish to stop eating, so it is a matter of what will outlast the other -- will the worms be subdued to let the fish eat, or the fish succumb to the worms.

[bguile]

I'll see if I can get a better picture with my SLR.

Last night I happened to turn back on the lights a few minutes after they had automatically gone out so that I could finish some water changes and maintenance on other QT's and noticed a long stringy material coming from the Angels anus similar to what I described earlier. It had to be at least 3 to 4 inches in length. It looks like the Prazi Pro is working. Today makes day 5 of the treatment, which is supposed to be 3-5 days, so I'll try again to get to eat. Should I treat him again even if he starts to eat? How do you know for sure the fish is dewormed? Do you just keep repeating the treatment until nothing comes out?

As far as the "skin" worms, I may have to re-evaluate that assessment. I'll continue looking at it again this evening to see if I can get a better perspective.

[leebca]

So far it sounds good.

Usually, after the initial treatment, the treatment is repeated in 6 or 7 days later, again. Stick to this regime regardless of what you see. Have on hand some medication that can be fed or put into its food once it eats.

The final determination is AFTER the fish starts eating again, the fecal matter will be of the color and texture it should be.