[bguile]

Hi Lee,

I've tried again with another Golden Angel to get through quarantine and need your help again with what I'm seeing. I purchased this fish on last week and initially just placed him into the QT for observation, after acclimation of course. I did skip the FW bath. He seemed to be doing fine until I noticed some type white object attached to his tail fin. I then waited another 3 days to see if I could get a better identification when I noticed that the fish would occassionally jerk back and forth irratically. I took this to be that the fish was irritated by something so I began a Cupramine dose. The level is currently at .3ppm for what I've read in the past "safe" for sensitive fish. It's now almost a week later and this is what the treatment has progressed to. It's eyes have clouded and it seems like it's protective layer has bulged outward. The original object on the tail has seemed to disappear while leaving a hole where it once was. I don't think you can see that in the picture. Also, there seems to be a cloudiness of some kind on it's pectoral fin and a bit just above the fin on its body. As in cases before, the fish is not eating.

I talked to the vendor about this as they indicated that they don't sell fish that don't eat and they've said that they don't recommend QT'ing this fish because it is a finicky eater and should go directly into a reef if expected to survive. WHAT??? Well basically they've told me in so many words that I'm on my own since I didn't add it directly to a reef and am using copper on a sensitive fish.


Any ideas of what the problems may be here? Is this in fact later stages of removing parasites? Is this instead a bacterial infection that i should ditch the cupramine and start a maracyn treatment?

Thanks as always for your help.

[leebca]

An 'irritated fish' is not the best reason to give the fish a copper treatment. It may exacerbate other problems. Dwarf Angels are sensitive to copper. However, Cupramine would be the best choice IF the fish needed a copper treatment.

It sounds like the fish brought with it a parasite. Now is the time to point out that if the FW had been performed, the parasite may have been killed.

The fish, undernourished and stressed is on a downward spiral from its weakened state. A bacterial infection may just be only one of its problems.

Since you got it from the LFS, did you see it eating? What was it eating?

I would stop the copper treatment. Treat the fish with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes. It has an appetite stimulant in the medication.

You might ask the LFS that, if you followed their advice and put the fish into the display without quarantine, would they:
1. Refund/replace the fish when it died? How long of a guarantee?
2. Would they refund/replace the fish that died from any disease, pathogen, or parasite the new fish brought into the tank?
3) Would they supply the medication and equipment for free to treat the whole tank of problems noted in 2.?

I'd follow their advice if they are willing to pay and you have the heart to watch fish die.

[bguile]

Originally Posted by leebca

It sounds like the fish brought with it a parasite. Now is the time to point out that if the FW had been performed, the parasite may have been killed.

...The only problem I have with a FW bath is that I haven't had a single fish survive one I've done yet. Now granted, I haven't done any since the ones I've tried completing before with a 30min time mark, but these or this isn't the type of fish I'm willing to "sacrifice" to perfect my technique, if you know what I mean. I'd rather do that with less expensive, more readily available fish. The problem then with them is I won't know if they died because of something I did, or something that happened before I got the fish. The automatic assumption is that I've done something wrong and maybe that's where my fault is.

Well, I purchased the fish online at Marinecenter.com and I don't believe they are going to take the fish back or just give me a new one. I haven't asked but based on the information I gave them and what was said I really don't think it's likely and maybe to some points within me I think it might not be fair for them to. I talked with a guy Randy who actually called me after I sent an email asking what they fed the fish. He said they usually feed them frozen mysis or frozen brine. No medications. Of course, since the purchase was online and their website said that they only sell fish that eat in their tanks I can only assume that it was eating at some point.

Last night while awaiting a response, I did begin a 25% water change to remove the Cupramine and will try getting the fish to eat. Randy (Marine Center) said that they don't quarantine this fish and they place it into their rock system which I guess keeps them eating. I was thinking to maybe transfer the fish (properly of course) to a new QT using LR from my display tank. Do you think I should do this to see if he begins to eat or begin the Maracyn II right away in it's current tank after the copper is removed?

[leebca]

One argument against quarantine is that the fish won't eat in quarantine but only with LR. I dismiss this. If the fish will eat off LR then the fish will eat off of fake LR in the quarantine tank. Take a piece of fake/plastic LR or coral and push some food into it and see if the fish will eat this. However, with the clouded eyes it might have trouble seeing this.

Online sources can afford to take chances with their livestock, as most wholesalers also can. You see, that fish cost them about $3. or less, plus some S&H. What I think they are saying is that they 'don't bother' to quarantine, which is the same you'd hear from all wholesalers. Fish are a commodity and expendable and inexpensive to these handlers. They may rationalize it anyway they want to make it sound to the public like they are innocent, but the facts remain they are not. It's Spin City.

Introducing LR into the quarantine complicates matters. Life on the LR can die and create poisons, adding to the stresses already on the fish. That, and how much food can the fish get off the LR? I'd suggest getting the copper out the best you can and begin the antibiotic treatment. Use fake LR or fake coral if you want to try and get the fish eating in that way.

[bguile]

Originally Posted by leebca

It sounds like the fish brought with it a parasite. Now is the time to point out that if the FW had been performed, the parasite may have been killed.

Going back to this statement for a minute..wasn't it said before that a FW dip does not necessarily kill all instances of a parasite b/c some are protected by the fish's mucus coating? Has that changed? Even if I did do a dip wouldn't it had led me to some sort of treatment requirement if evidence of a parasite was left?

Originally Posted by leebca

One argument against quarantine is that the fish won't eat in quarantine but only with LR. I dismiss this. If the fish will eat off LR then the fish will eat off of fake LR in the quarantine tank. Take a piece of fake/plastic LR or coral and push some food into it and see if the fish will eat this. However, with the clouded eyes it might have trouble seeing this.

I have done so. I performed a 90% water change matching pH, temp, and salinity and added coral decorations. I've also laced the decorations with a few different offerings. We'll see if he eats. The fish is still able to see a good bit. I tested by trying to move clear rigid tubing near him and he would swim away when it started moving toward him.

[leebca]

Yes. That's why I used the word "may" in that particular sentence. There are few absolutes in the world and they usually aren't found in the marine fish hobby.

If you saw a fuzzy object taller than you moving towards you that you couldn't recognize, what would you do? The fish reacting to a tube doesn't guarantee good eyesight. That's why my words were: ". . .might have trouble seeing. . ."

Were each of these fishes you had from the same source/vendor?

I've used TMC before. I find they have some fishes not easily found. Their fishes can be pricey. Have you given any thought as to why they don't guarantee their fish like 80% of the other online vendors do? You might want to ask Randy that question. Their published reason is that they have no control over the hobbyist's system quality. All online vendors can't control the conditions the recipient puts the fish into, but why can you get guarantees from most of them, but not from TMC? Anyway, in the future, you may wish to contact a few other online vendors to check on the availability of a specific fish and then wait for it.

I hope this fish starts to eat. The basic rule is to do whatever it takes. If the fake decorations with food in it doesn't get it going, then your last effort might be true LR, but the likely die off will be something to closely monitor. Have you tried any live foods?

[bguile]

I haven't tried any live foods with this one yet...and I was just at the only LFS near me that carries live food. :slap: Didn't even think to get a portion of brine or something.

I never thought about why they don't offer a guarantee after the fish reaches your door. I have 4 LFS' around me all at 30-40min distance and only 1 carries any guarantee at all..on some livestock. All others, if you walk out the door and the fish bellies up...too bad. I'll have to look more for online vendors with guarantees. I only know of one (SWF) and they don't even have some of the fish I want listed to even get on a waiting list. I don't necessarily want all the rarest of fish, but I don't want all of the same fish everyone else has got either. Obviously I want to keep this fish seeing as this is my third one (and they weren't cheap either), but haven't been successful yet. Two different vendors, both who claim the fish was eating when they had it. I've kept and keep other fish without a problem. Who can you trust these days??

Well, I hope he begins to eat also as this will probably be the last time I try this fish. The quarantine periods on my other fish are just about coming to an end and will be going into the display soon and since this is such a shy fish I don't think he'd do well if too many fish are already in the tank shoo'ing him from all the taken hidding spots. Plus, it'd be just my luck that I'd purchase another one, get him really healthy and eating good in the QT only to be bullied in the display.

I placed the fake coral in the QT on yesterday and pushed a couple different foods in the decorations to see if it would go for any of it. I haven't seen any evidence of eating anything, but he is swimming about the tank much more than he did previously. Before he would only swim around the bottom edges of the tank. I also began a Maracyn 2 (SW) treatment today doubling the first dose. We'll see if it can help nurse it back to good health and hopefully urge it to eat.

Thanks again for your continued assistance with this and other matters on this board.

[vaporize]

Originally Posted by leebca

Online sources can afford to take chances with their livestock, as most wholesalers also can. You see, that fish cost them about $3. or less, plus some S&H. What I think they are saying is that they 'don't bother' to quarantine, which is the same you'd hear from all wholesalers. Fish are a commodity and expendable and inexpensive to these handlers. They may rationalize it anyway they want to make it sound to the public like they are innocent, but the facts remain they are not. It's Spin City.

I can understand the statement from both sides as a clownfish collector and half in the industry as a volunteer partime worker (yeah that's the term I am making up, because I dont get pay offering advice there, but i am there a long time). Of course the wholesale price for golden angel is a bit more than $3, even from the indonesia exporters.

I think this leads back to the whole argument of whether some fish should even be bought by hobbists. Golden angel is famously known for eating any type of prepared food (flake, pellet, frozen, fresh seafood) in captivity due to its zooplankton diet. It is almost similiar to certain hard to keep butterflies that restricted diet to sponges. Out of the 10% that does eat prepare food, they might take frozen mysis or cyclopleeze and they are ultra picky eaters. Have not seen any reports that it eats the frozen "sponge diets".

I have to agreed with Randy (not like I know him) that it should be put in a reef setting as a reef setting will probably provide a much better choice in terms of the fish able to find food. I agreed with LEE that all fish should be well qurantine until you put into your display collection system because any disease or parasite can wipe it out easily; but it is true that the golden angel might never eat any prepared food while it is in there due to its restricted diet.

At the end of the day, I think looking at both sides, as a hobby & industry, we should be well informed of these fish and try to discourage the collection and sales of these 90% dying fish. Of course, the industry is driven by demand, and whenever there's demand, people will continue to collect them (and asking why they die in captivity).

[kimberfish]

try melafix - it worked on my lions cloudy eye. He was in the main tank when I used it. I"ve tried Qting hippo tangs and had the same problem only to put them in the main tank and then they would eat and not stress so and do better than in QT IMO

[bguile]

Originally Posted by vaporize

Golden angel is famously known for eating any type of prepared food (flake, pellet, frozen, fresh seafood) in captivity due to its zooplankton diet.

Should that have said famously known for NOT eating? If it is correct as written then I shouldn't be having a problem, so I'm going to assume it should be "not eating". If that's not the case, then please correct me and explain.

Thanks for chiming in. I really had not seen or heard anything to the sort that this fish is that difficult to get to eat as you stated above. I usually do a lot of research on fish before I buy them and have seen numerous posts on other boards of people that are successfully keeping them in their tanks. Many of them being "Tank of the Month" quality. I haven't spoken with them to inquire their quarantine process if any, but it's the first time I've heard that they will starve in a quarantine tank. I take my copy of "Marine Fishes" by Scott W. Michael, with me when I go to purchase fish in case I come across a beautiful fish I've never seen before. Which was the case when I first saw this fish. In it, he ranks the fish a 3 (1-5 scale, 1 being most difficult) like most Angelfish. He later goes on to say that most of these fish die most likely due to cyanide poisoning, not because they don't eat. So again, who can you trust because there are many questions to be asked here:

1. How was the fish caught and were any poisons used?
2. Was he eating after he was caught?
3. Was he witnessed eating at the retailer or just assumed?

The only thing I know for sure, is that he's not eating in my tank. So if he was in fact eating in all the other places is he not eating now because of anything that happened to him before I got him?

Anyway, from this point whatever the situation may be I'm surely going to give Lee's thought of purchasing fish with guarantees a better look. Maybe if we all start only purchasing fish that come with guarantees (reasonable ones of course) retailers and wholesalers will begin to lose money for selling ill cared for merchandise and we'll create a demand for better quality livestock and handling.

As for the fish, I can't yet tell if he's eaten anything or not. Some of the food I pushed into the decorations seems to have reduced overnight but I haven't actually seem it eat. I'll have to keep watch and hopefully get a chance to witness it poking at something.

[bguile]

Originally Posted by kimberfish

try melafix - it worked on my lions cloudy eye. He was in the main tank when I used it. I"ve tried Qting hippo tangs and had the same problem only to put them in the main tank and then they would eat and not stress so and do better than in QT IMO

Thanks. I'll give Melafix a try once I've completed the Maracyn treatment if it hasn't worked.

It's interesting that you had problems with Hippos not eating. Marine Fishes also lists Hippos as a 3. I've Qt'd a few and never had that problem. My problem was with keeping them. I lost them all to MI and MV as I waffled back and forth whether to QT or not to QT. I'd buy a new fish, dump him right in the display and of course the hippo was always the first to show signs of MI. That's why today I WILL NOT put anything in my display without a proper QT period. I've lost too many fish and have learned quite an expensive lesson. I've had MI ride in on corals before.

[kimberfish]

the last one (my 3rd attempt) was in Qt but only for 2 days before I put him in the main tank...when in QT all he did was hide under the pvc tube. Once I put him in the main he acted fine and is still doing great

[bguile]

Yeah, mine did that too. Particularly if they are in the QT alone. After a few days they usually came around fine.

[leebca]

I'm hoping still that the fish will come around.

To all:
I've heard about all the excuses and 'reasons' for not doing a quarantine procedure, but bguile's results of losing fish outweighs them all. Any new place is a stress for the fish, be it QT or display. A QT doesn't have to be 'bare' or 'bland.' If the owner thinks the fish should have a more natural surrounding in the QT, then decorate it with artificial stuff.

A shy fish will often come forward if the hobbyist will just sit in front of the QT for a couple of hours each day so the fish gets used to the owner's presence. The experience of capture and in the care of a human for a fish might be like for us being kept as a pet by King Kong.

bguile:
Please read this before deciding to use Melafix or Pimafix:
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...dont-work.html

Good luck!

[bguile]

Thanks for the well wishes and thanks for the link. I sadly have to report that the Angel didn't make it and expired sometime during the day today.

I have read the article you linked to. I was thinking that maybe I could get lucky and it would help heal the fish, if I needed to go that far.

[leebca]

Very sorry to hear this.

[bguile]

Is it really unlikely to find a healthy specimen of this fish? If anyone knows of a reputable place that does have them and carries a guarantee, please let me know.

Thanks.

[leebca]

I don't think it unlikely. There are some of the sponsors here at Reefland that may offer online fishes. You should try a web search for online sources, too. They may not advertise having this fish, but most importers receive fish they ddidn't expect, anyway. You should let them know what you're looking for and one or two may actually make a little extra effort to keep you in mind.

There are online vendors here in the Los Angeles area that visit wholesalers more than once a week. They are useful in getting to look for a specific fish and they will also avoid any that don't look good.

[vaporize]

I am not sure where you research, but it is well known that golden angel are not your everyday pgymy angel (flame angel, lemon peel, coral beauty) people seldom see them eat any prepared food (dry or frozen).

Feel free to ask around on the high traffic forums, getting it to eat prepared food is harder than training a mandarin to eat frozen. I am not saying it is not eating in other people's tank, it probably is (else it would be dead), but what is it eating is the question. Are you able to give it enough live pods & food in a QT environment if it refuse to eat prepared food? Or the proper sponge?

Just something to think about before trying on another golden angel. If you wanna try, pay your LFS more money for a quarantine period or get it special order in to there locally so you can observe.

[bguile]

Thanks guys for the inputs. I have decided that I'm going to give it a rest a while and continue my research. I have posted on several different boards and have come across varying opinions regarding this Angel. Unfortunately, they haven't swayed more to either side. Some have kept them with no problems during quarantine, others met the same fate as mine going directly to the main tank.