[JBfishfield]

Hi, I'm hoping someone can help my husband and I...we are new to this, and it has been an nightmare...

We bought a reef tank set up a week and a half ago, our first one. We live in Manila and went to a market here, turns out to have been a REALLY bad idea. We spent a lot of time over a couple of weeks talking to the different vendors, and thought we were making good decisions based on what we were told, we have since been told by others that pretty much everything that we were told at this market was wrong.

We got a 35 gallon tank, that was already set up with corals, live rock, and some fish. They assured us repeatedly that since the tank had been set up in the store for over a month it was stable, we didn't need to cycle it. They broke the tank down, bagged the sea water from the tank, bagged the fish and a couple of other new fish, wrapped the rock and corals in wet newspapers, bagged the sand, and sent us home. We set it up according to their instructions. They also repeatedly assured us we didn't need hydrometers, any other test equipment, etc. They said since they got seawater directly from the ocean, we just needed to add fresh water every 3 days to replace evaporated water, and do a partial water change once a month, with more seawater.

The first fish died that night. (I have been spending a lot of time researching online and talking to other stores and people since the fish started dying, and have gotten so much conflicting info by this point I'm overwhelmed.) We lost two angels, one anthias?, and two tangs over the next several days. The store just kept assuring us it was normal and to do nothing. We started seeing white spots on the last couple of fish to die, even a nodule on one of them. After a couple of days we had left a domino damsel, a 3 striped damsel, a lawnmower blenny, a fish they called a strawberry fish (but looked like maybe a purple dottyback from what I could see online) and a seastar. I read that cleaner shrimp can help, so I got three small ones and put them in the tank (the number the market recommended).

Things seemed better, but then we started seeing spots on all the remaining fish, except the blenny, but he seemed not healthy either. The domino didn't act sick, but he definitely had spots, the striped damsel had clumps of white bumps, and was starting to just hide under a rock, he was normally really aggressive.

As per instructions of several other places here, we got a 5 gallon hospital tank, salt mix, mixed the water, used about half mix and half old tank water in it. I checked the pH and the total ammonia in it, and salinity, levels looked good. We followed the instructions for the freshwater dip with methylene blue on this website, and gave the damsels and blenny a dip and then into the hospital tank. the purple fish had totally disappeared. We took apart the whole tank after the fish were in the dip...he was last seen, alive, Sunday morning...is it possible that by Monday night he could have died, and decomposed that quickly?

The three fish all seemed ok in their separate baths. We put a couple of the live rocks in the hospital tank so the blenny would have food. We were planning on starting the copper treatment. But as soon as teh domino got in the hospital tank, he started looking AWFUL, and he died this morning. the other two fish actually seem better than they did before, but now the nitrate test levels are high. I've added Nutrafin Cycle, (as instructed by a fish store here), but it is still high, and now also the pH is low.

I'm scared to start copper treatment, I want to help these two remaining fish. I feel sick about everything that has happened. Please help!

I'm sure you need more info from me, I'm happy to give it, I just wanted to get at least something out here before I have to go to work. I will check back the minute I get home tonight. THANK YOU!

[Cas]

I would recommend That you look through the Sticky's at the top of this fourm by Leebeca. Starting with the one entitled Marine Ich Myth and Facts. This one has alot of good information and will give you some treatment options as it sounds like your fish has Marine Ich.

I am sure someone with more experience will be able to answer your other questions.

Good luck

[JBfishfield]

Thanks, I did look through those posts, that is what led us to do the freshwater dips last night, and buy the copper treatment. It's just that I'm not sure if it is safe to begin the copper treatment right now. Also I need help lowering the ammonia, if that is in fact what I need to do. I'm having a hard time making an exact match with the color scale that comes in the test kit for Total Ammonia NH3/NH4+. I've read that usually high ammonia comes with higher pH, and I think our pH is low for saltwater. People are giving such exact readings on their levels...is there different equipment to test all of these things than what I've been able to find here in Manila - Tetra tests with the color scales? Even those took multiple trips to 3 different stores to find here...

[JBfishfield]

ok, found some more info on other Sticky's you must have been referring to...we did the dip first, and then into the QT tank...looks like that was a mistake? Also, it says it is best not to put any live rocks in because of the interaction with the copper treatment, but then what does the blenny eat?
Also, more info on the QT tank. Both the blenny and the striped damsel ate today, but not as much as normal. The damsel is about and inch and a half long, the blenny is about 3 inches long.
The damsel no longer has the big clumps of white spots on his fins that he did before the dip.
The blenny's coloring still looks a little faded I believe.

The tank readings right now are
total ammonia NH3/NH4+ somewhere in between .25 and 1.5mg/l
pH between 7.7 and 8.0, closer to 7.7
hydrometer reads 1.021
temp 74

Should I add more cycle?

I'm sure these mistakes are horrifying to you, I certainly have been horrified with what has happened. But I do want to state for the record that we spent a lot of time getting advice from different people running the fish market here, and really thought we were doing the right thing by following their advice. Obviously this was not true.

[JBfishfield]

In case this information is helpful here are the readings on the main tank (currently has sea star, 3 cleaner shrimp, and corals)
Total ammonia 0
pH 7.7

and in the extra saltwater mix
total ammonia 0
pH 7.4

[leebca]

I'm sorry you have been given so much mis-information. That one month old tank was not stable. It was not technically able to sustain the life of those fish in it much less adding more to it.

The key to good marine husbandry is to keep the bacteria happy and to discourage the 'wrong' bacteria from proliferating.

I understand your situation. But you are trying to recover from a series of problems and in general, that is not going to go well for you or the remaining fish.

Since the market is so 'assuring' I would return the sick fish to them and let them deal with it. You are not in any good position to take on this responsibility without a significant amount of proper information and some more experience.

Look through this post and see what the 'good' sequence of events are in setting up a marine system. You'll note the equipment you need and some of the things you may want to get:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

You'll note from the above recommendation that it takes many months to develop a stabilized marine system AND the marine fish and marine life must be added slowly.

The white spots are most likely Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) a common parasite amongst marine fishes in the hobby. There are three known treatments. Copper, hyposalinity and transfer method. A freshwater dip does not kill all these parasites. Cleaner fish and shrimp will not remove them from the fish. This link should clarify some of the characteristics of this parasite: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

As mentioned above, I would return the fish and all the marine life you obtained from the market. Even if they don't give you your money back. Then take the above post and start your aquarium the slow and successful way. Take your time and be patient. This is a fun hobby even though your introduction to it has been frustrating. BUT it takes patience and a lot of time.

Mother Nature won't be rushed. Adding bacteria doesn't help in the long run. The bacteria are free and already there -- they are everywhere. Until they decide to multiply and start their metabolic process, there is nothing you can do. With the high ammonia readings you report, you will need to perform at least two or three water changes of 50% or more every day just to keep those poisons down for the fish. Another good reason to return the fish and marine life.

Buying a pre-packaged one month old system is not a good move, but you learned that. There is even a reasonable chance that what you bought wasn't even a month old.

The access to marine fish in The Philippines is so high that these fish are considered expendable and a steady source of income for your fish store. They count on your fish dieing so they can sell you more. Fool them. Do it right and slowly.

Let's start over. After reading the above, I will answer your questions. But I really don't see any advantage for you or the fish you have that are ill, to try to recover from the current set of circumstances. Write this off as a bad experience, and consider staying in the hobby by starting anew.

[JBfishfield]

Thanks for your time and help Lee. I guess my only worry about returning the fish is that they won't even try to help them at this market. As you say and I have painfully learned, they see the fish as expendable. I'm afraid I'm just going to be subjecting these last two fish to yet another incredibly stressful experience of being transported back to the store, only then to be left to die. That doesn't seem like a good option either...? maybe I can find someone else who would take them and care for them...

[leebca]

When I recommended you return the fish, I was pretty confident of what their fate would be. It's unfortunate. You are a responsible and caring person, just the kind we want in this hobby. But those who fool and trick their customers need to learn something too -- those in the know won't stand for it. This is, in my opinion, the best these fish can do -- send a message.

If there is a fish club in your area, you may try to get in touch with them. Otherwise, you would need to move very fast to help these fish and I think it very improbable at this point.

Nonetheless. . .Good luck!