[weez1959]

Hi Lee!
I haven't posted for quite a while cuz I thought I had a pretty good handle on fish health but now I have a stumper.
I got sucked in to getting a pair of anthias (the fish sucked me in not the LFS, they're so cute I couldn't resist)
Anyway, as soon as I got them I put them in QT and looked them over really well the next day. They looked like they had a light dusting of something (velvet or Ich, I can never tell for sure unless it's just a few spots, then I know it's ich) so I started them on copper.
The problem is one of the anthias has not been swimming normally. I didn't notice til the next day because it was lights out on the 1st day and besides they both hid under the troll bridge right away.
He seems to swim or drag himself along the bottom. I haven't seen him actually lift off the bottom at all. The other little guy seems fine, swims normally.
Do you know what this could be? will it go away on it's own?

[leebca]

Louise,

Glad you haven't needed any help for so long. We don't want to find problems or new things if we can avoid it!

The condition you described can be anything from neurological, to poisoning, to bad acclimation to pathogen. Assuming there are no other symptoms to report, it's almost impossible to tell them apart. Pathogens can affect the swim bladder and other internal organs. Neurological damage can be the hardest to differentiate -- and isn't curable by the hobbyist.

If you are keeping excellent water quality and KNOW that there are no poisons (e.g., fertilizers, insecticides, etc.) in the source water, then that leaves the copper as a possible culprit. If the latter, you need to reduce the copper content to the bare minimum during the treatment. If you are using Cupramine, that would be 0.25 to 0.30 ppm copper as measured on the Salifert Copper Test kit. Any other copper med and I can't help on this. If you are using another copper med, then I'd guess this copper poisoning possibility goes up 10 fold. If you are not directly measuring and controlling the copper content, then this becomes even a greater possibility.

As for a bad acclimation -- it is likely. Not from what you've done, but because the way these fish are generally handled. The are the most commodity oriented fishes of all the marine fishes. That is, they are generally treated with less care in the capture, transportation, and wholesaler handling processes then the single Angelfish, for instance. Acclimation issues exhibit in many different ways, including but not limited to behavior (such as swimming strangely) peculiarities.

So, after all the above, there isn't much in the way of a definitive recommendation. If you've eliminated all but the pathogen, then the fish needs treatment with an antibiotic that goes internally (such as Maracyn Two for Saltwater aquariums).

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,
He was at the bottom of the tank before I put in the copper
Water quality is near perfect and my copper was reduced on the weekend since it's amost been 2 weeks already. I thought this poor fish would eventually start coming up but after watching him in the bottom of the tank all this time I figured it was time for "Lee to the rescue!"
The healthy one is eating but I never actually saw the sinker eat anything although he does seem to get excited when I add mysis to the tank
By the way whatever dusting I saw on the fish in the beginning has been gone for a while now, could have been my imagination but it gave the impression of velvet so I didn't take a chance...

[weez1959]

I forgot to ask, if I should start them on Maracyn Two, should I remove all the copper with cuprasorb first and how long after do I add it?

[leebca]

This one I might know the answer to.

If you are using Cupramine: Cupramine gets along with Maracyn Two for saltwater fish. They can be used together.

Usually, if you at all suspect Marine Velvet, best to perform an immediate copper treatment. That pathogen kills fairly quickly.

[weez1959]

I just checked my notes and it was going to be 14 days tomorrow with the cupramine so I put cuprasorb in the filter this afternoon. I will add the Maracyn Two tomorrow morning. Should I remove the cuprasorb before adding the Maracyn? Or does it even matter?

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,
Me again,

I wanted to take a pic of my little sick guy and I saw something in the bottom of the tank, not sure if it's a poop or a worm.

The pic is bad but to describe it I would say a bit bigger than thread, smooth and comes to a point.

Also he seems to be moving around a bit more today but still in the bottom.
Now I don't know if I should do Maracyn or a de-worming????

I also added a pic of the fish, as you can see he looks good! very clean but doesn't swim off the bottom.

[weez1959]

On closer look, it's a poop! I took it out of the tank and look under a magnifying glass and it looks like a white poop.

[leebca]

It’s beginning to look more pathogen than a non-pathogen situation.

Use no absorbing materials while treating with Maracyn Two.

You don’t need to choose between the two – do both. The Maracyn Two will stress internal pathogens; the de-worming will attack intestinal parasites. The above assumes you will de-worm by adding the meds to the food and not the tank.

De-worming is always a very good idea even if there are no symptoms.

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,
I'll start them on Maracyn Two but will wait for your answer for the parasite treatment. Reason being that the sick fish in question is not eating, or at least not that I know of. I try to sit for 10-15 minutes at feeding time and only the healthy fish chases around for food.
So what i need to know is if I can use the Maracyn Two with Prazipro or do one or the other.

[leebca]

Sorry. You did mention the fish wasn't eating and I forgot.

I don't know if they are compatible. The question was never answered, though often asked.

I would proceed with the Maracyn first. Start with a double dose as recommended on the label.

My reasoning for doing the antibiotic treatment is that even with a 'normal' internal parasite, the fish would 'normally' be eating. With an internal infection, or the type of intestinal disorder that is bacteria based, the fish might not be eating. If you disagree with this reasoning, then go the other way.

If you don't already have some, while you begin the treatment with Maracyn, I would obtain some of the Jungle product that has a broad spectrum of intestinal cure-alls in it. As soon as the fish starts to eat, give it that med, instead of just the Prazipro.

If the fish still isn’t eating after the antibiotic treatment, then go ahead and use the Prazipro as a bath treatment AFTER removing the Maracyn Two. At any time the fish begins to eat, feed some of the Jungle med.

[weez1959]

Thanks lee! I'm on it...

[weez1959]

Hi Lee,
Update on the anthias,
He's been through all of the treatments, copper, maracyn, prazipro and no change. Anyways 4 days ago I decided to put him in the DT because he still hasn't eaten (not in front of me anyways) and I figured he may eat in the DT. Anyways, I can't tell if he's eating now because he has a little cave he calls his own but he does come out very often and I watch his movements.
I've come to the conclusion that the best way to describe him is that he swims exactly like a goby! He does lots of mountain climbing... quick swim, rest on rocks, quick swim, rest on rocks, etc. etc...
I really didn't know what else to do with him and I figured he may just waste away and die in the QT so all I'm hoping is that he will adjust in the DT and survive with his disability!
Here's a couple of pics of him:

[leebca]

Thanks for the photos. The fish looks healthy. Keep hoping!

[weez1959]

goofy but healthy!