Damsels

[Future]

Hello everyone. I've been in the hobby on and off now for upwards of 10-12 years, but lately it's been a good 1-2 years I just left my tank as nothing more than live rock due to moving a few times.

Anyway, I finally broke down and hit a LFS where I was looking over some nice livestock. In stead of going for 1 or 2 expensive fish, I went with 6 damsels. The mixture includes 3 stripe, yellow tail, and domino.

These were placed together after I float acclimated for 5+hours last night. Once I released them into the tank I allowed them about 1-2 hours of light to get used to the aquascaping I did the night before. (I let them find their spots.) This morning I got up at 5am and decided to see if everything was ok, I turned on the light and of course they are still "hiding", but I was able to see a few in the rocks.
One of the domino's came out and was swimming in a circular motion, and looked to have a white film. At first I though "Ick", but remembering the Ick I used to see, this wasn't patchy, it was more of a film as if shedding was going on.

Assuming it was just the stress of the move and being I had to goto work, I turned the light off again and figured my best bet would be to hit a few/many sites and try figuring it out.

Last night, he looked fine, all colors were good. 6 hours later, white film and circular swimming motion before going back into the rocks. Yes, it is possibly that he was trying to "scratch" it off, but at 5am I was still dead to the world.


Tank Specs:
36 Gal.
75lbs LR
2-3in CC bed
2month old Fluval 205
I do however have a slight hair algea issue on the glass from when I used tap water a while ago.

[leebca]

I am uncertain on whether or not you are asking for help, opinions, recommendations or ? from your post.

I would have thought with your involvement in the hobby that being patient and going slowly would be second nature. However, putting those number of fish into that old aquarium is a 'shock' to the microbial life in there. Even if that was the plan, then having test kits, taking measurements twice or more per day, and being prepared to make large water changes would be the way to go.

Putting a significant bioload into an established old aquarium can cause ammonia and nitrite spikes. I mention this because, the behavior and appearance of the fish you have described is one that has been poisoned. Either in your aquarium or somewhere along the line of it coming to you.

Have you checked for:
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate
alkalinity
calcium
magnesium
pH
temp
specific gravity
?

Please report actual numbers using a test kit or meter (not dip sticks).

For now, make large water changes (over 50%) daily until the biological filter has re-established itself at the higher bioload level and is keeping the water quality steady. Be sure your source water is NOT tap water and follow these recommendations for such large water changes: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Good luck!

[Future]

lol, sorry I have no idea what I'm asking for. I guess some help would be appreciated, but suggestions are always more than welcome.

It has been a long time since I've acclimated fish into a tank. The last time I acclimated was probably 8 years ago and that was 1 Tomato Clown, 1 African Star, 1 Coral Beauty and a cleaner crew. Which were all done the same way with no problems at all. Time wasn't an issue and as opposed to the typical 2 hour method, I went above and beyond.

I ran tests prior to the fish and everything was perfectly within range with the exception of a small spike in Nitrate (0.29 ppm) that explained the spotting of new hair algae on the back wall. I called the wife and told her to run the tests being I'm stuck here at work all day. So when I get more current numbers I'll list them.

There shouldn't have been a single thing in my tank to poison a fish at all. So I'm at a loss on that part.

**Wife just called and the current readings are
PH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0.2 --not too bad
Nitrates: 0.28 --still a slight spike
Temp: 79 --a Bit High
Calcium: 462
Salinity: 1.019 --A bit low

[leebca]

There should be no nitrite reading. This is a potential source of the poison. You refer to the nitrate measurement as a 'spike.' How do you account for the absence of nitrates? How are they being exported? Do you have an alkalinity measurement?

How old is the live rock in the system?

Any update on the fish's condition?

[Future]

I just called the ol lady, she can't find the little guy anywhere, so he's either hiding or went to fishy heaven, but all the other fish are out and having a blast.

The Alk test kit was too old, so I'll be getting a new one tomorrow to start checking that again. She asked me if the date was ok and I declined (2001)
The Nitrite reading is higher than yesterday, however as you said it does "shock" the system, so it's to be expected.

The LR in the system is 12+ years old. Originally it was a single chunk of rock that stood in the center of the tank (when my brother in law gave the system to me) 2 years later I broke it up. (Long story short I went coral reef and shelving was needed.)

The export of Nitrates was and is mainly regular water changes. I'll usually do a 5% change once a month because of the tank size and the displacement of water due to the sand/rock. I figured that my displaced water is roughly 4 gallons out of a 36gallon. So I'll do approximately 2 gallons total every 30-45 days.

**DAMN! Thinking about it now The latest water change might be the culprit because I don't make my own water I hit the LFS for it. (Both salt & RO/DI) This last time the one I usually goto went out of business so I was forced to a different LFS where I used their water. For all I know they used the tap.

[Future]

Latest update:

Got home last night and ran tests, all were higher than before and the sick fish was M.I.A. so after some searching I found him (what was left anyway) his head was gone and there was mainly just a skeleton left, Covered in webbing from the LR inhabitants.

Went ahead got him removed and did a small (1/2 gal.) water change to calm the tank. All other fish are fine swimming and eating.

Ran some tests on the LFS water and everything was within range, so I don't think that was the problem. I can only conclude that the fish was sick when bought and couldn't handle the stress of the whole move.

[leebca]

Sounds correct. The shock of the system is not to be expected when fish are added slowly. That fish likely, as you wrote, couldn't handle the stress (of the poison and the move) and possibly was sick to begin with. Please go slowly in the future and brush up on the hobby. Please do water tests routinely and accept nothing less than good water quality.

This post has links to articles and a lot of other posts with information for you to read in your effort to catch up:
Table/Contents - Link List

Good luck!

[Future]

Update:

Bought another new test kit today and just did some basic tests, and they were quite surprising... The only problem though is the kit didn't come with the color charts like it should have, and I was not about to drive 40 miles to exchange it. Some Online searching helped for all except the Ph chart.

LFS water:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite -
Nitrate - 5.0ppm
Ph - pink colored
Salinity - 1.025

My Tank:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - deep red, WAYYY off the chart, My best guestimate is 180ppm+
Ph - light purple color (Something tells me that's not good)
Salinity - 1.020


So I'm going to search the boards, but in case I can't find it... How shall I go about correcting these issues?

And Lee,
Looks like you were correct, and it took a new test kit to prove it. My apologies to you, and thank you for the help through this. You will be happy to know though that now I'm making it a point to have multiple test kits at hand to double check things.

As well out of boredom last Night I broke down and did the math on the tank spec's and found it to be at most a 32gal. Not the 36gal. I was under the impression of it being. Anyway I'm starting to think I'm going to need water changes more often; kind of like once every 2 weeks or so.


Just to jump back real quick, yes I have done this for years, but I never really dove into it because it was basically a FOWLR. Now I want to go corals, but I'm not advanced enough to even think about those until I treat the hobby more like a lifestyle which I'm now starting to do. (Basically, I grew up..ha ha)

[Future]

I figured this info might help you...

Recent additives I've used:

Kent Marine MicroVert - I add maybe 1 time a week. Haven't added in 3 weeks so far though

PurpleUp - Stopped adding this 2 months ago

B-Ionic Calcium & Buffer (2 stage system) - haven't added this for 4-5 months

[leebca]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Before you make changes, you need the facts (to know what the readings are now). I know your system is small, but a handheld pH meter, like the ones they use in the field, should be considered if you want to keep corals and invertebrates. If you shop around and check some of the sponsors here on Reefland, you may be able to find one and get calibration standards for under $70. Those color comparison kits for pH just aren't very informative. You may wish to look into and purchase a refractometer, too. That should cost half of what the meter would cost.

I thought a low nitrate didn't make sense based upon the initial information. That isn't your main concern for the moment. You need to address water quality in general. Please read through this post: What is Water Quality.

Begin by taking Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium level measurements and comparing that to the chart in the above linked post. Slowly move the three into harmony and balance. After making a small alkalinity adjustment, wait 48 hours and then check the alkalinity. Then make another small adjustment if an adjustment is needed. That is the pattern to use for alkalinity adjustments. Wait 48 hours to see the effect of an adjustment.

Change calcium slowly, but this can change faster than magnesium and faster than alkalinity -- BUT keep it with the alkalinity measurement, don't just dump it in to reach the final target. Increase it with the increase in alk. Magnesium adjustments should be done slower than calcium only because most magnesium adjusters have other chemical contaminants with them and may cause miner precipitation of 'junk.'

Avoid those additives until the chemistries are balanced and then you might considered using balanced additives to maintain alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. Use specific additives for each of those three until they are in balance.

Now, as to exactly how or what to use to make the adjustments, the world is open. You can use off the shelf products, home made products, etc. Your choice based upon your wallet, time, and willingness to pay attention to details. The 'traditional' chemical calculator is a good calculator to use for chemical additions, found here: Reef Chemistry Calculator

In a couple of months, your system should show readings of those three in harmony. Those three have a great influence on the pH of the water. Now get an accurate pH measurement. When you make water changes after this point, make sure the new salt water meets these readings -- adjust your saltwater if it isn't starting off properly balanced (and consider switching brands of salt if the readings are not to your liking).

After the above, you may consider bringing the nitrates under control -- increased frequency of water changes and increased size of water changes; chemical absorption; etc.

When you make a 1/2 gallon water change in a 32 gallon system, you are in effect doing practically nothing. You are in fact only removing about 1.5% of the contaminants. This is not effective water management by export. You want to do no less than 25% water changes (8 gallons) every 3 weeks on such a small system, or 10% weekly (rounded up to 3.5 gallons) after things stabilize.

Good luck!

[Future]

Very interesting indeed. I read about water quality last night simply because it popped up in my search. Great article and I'll be printing it out later tonight.

Most places have told me to just continue doing water changes, even as much as 50%. IMO 50% is just way overkill and if I do that I may as well just empty out and start from square one. This won't teach me anything though and if I get a larger tank which I plan on doing down the road it'll be nice to know all this stuff.

For now I'll be looking into new test equipment.
1. The refractometer - Is this the basic refracto found in the medical field or is it specially designed? If it's basic I can get these all day.

[leebca]

You're looking for a refractometer used to measure salt (sodium chloride) in water. Although they may stipulate they are made for 'saltwater' they mean sodium chloride in water. We use them for the hobby even though they are not standardized nor calibrated for use with natural sea water (NSW). In the range we use them (33 to 38 ppt) they are adequate, but much, much better than a hydrometer. They show a scale for ppt and sp. gr. Some have an adjusting screw for calibrating and some are set at a room temperature such that the sample needs to sit on the unit for 30 secs or so to come to the room temperature.

If you want a technical paper on them:
Refractometers and Salinity Measurement by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

The best thing to use is a standard NSW sample at 35 ppt to set the reading at 1.0265 sp. gr. off of the salt refractometer. Measurements higher and lower will be 'off' because the scale is set for sodium chloride (as mentioned above) rather than real sea water. Still, it will be much closer to accurate than a hydrometer will provide, and more reliable when you want to know how much of a change any action you take has had on the sp. gr.

This is an example of one, a sample of what the viewing scales look like, along with its instructions for calibration:
http://www.extech.com/instrument/pro...ls/RF20_UM.pdf

[Future]

Update:

I have yet to buy a refractometer, for that is basically the last thing I wanted to worry about right now. In other words it wasn't going to address my immediate issue.

I took a used penguin biowheel (10gal. tank size) and allowed this to run for a few days using basic media cartridges just to be sure it functioned the way I wanted.

Earlier today I did a 25% water change and filled the penguin with Chaetomorpha (Spagetti Algae), draped it to flow over into the tank and plugged in the penguin. No it's not great or remotely good, but it's something until I get a sump/fuge configured. As well I also took some of the Chaeto and stuffed a plastic tube to form a makeshift in tank fuge, where I placed it. The tube just keeps it from floating all over for now.

When I bought the Chaeto, I also got some nice caulerpa, so I went ahead and planted it in the tank. It wasn't much at all, maybe a baseball size amount. Once again, once I get the fuge going, all macro will be moved as to advance the tank properly.

My Salinity is now reading 1.022 (water change obviously)
Other tests will be run tomorrow night. From 2 days of reading the macro's should help bring my nitrates down, but I'm not expecting anything major in such a short time.

All in all though so far I have seen some advances in the fish. After 3 hours passed they were more active than they had been. Quite literally looked happy. Swimming all over as they hadn't been doing, inspecting everything as they hadn't wanted to, etc... I may be wrong, but I think I'm on the right track now.

I'm fully willing to listen to any other advice I only have 2 questions...

1. Fire Red bristle worms? I mean bright red and stood out! Good or bad?

2. What is this hitch-hiker? a sea-slug? some kind of snail?
**Picture is bad, even set on Macro, but it's smaller than a dime, the shell(?) just looks like half a pistachio shell, and is having a good ol time roaming about.

[Future]

Searching the net it looks exactly like an Abalone, Could this be? Hmmmm

If so and my tank won't sustain it presently, I might have to find it a new home huh?

[leebca]

1. Bristle worms are generally a good thing. They help keep the substrate moving around, aerated and clean. They also provide food for some marine life forms. However, there are those that can sting humans. You should have no problem whatsoever so long as you follow the basic rule of keeping your 'ungloved' hands, arms, elbows, etc. out of the marine water.

2. Can't tell from the photo. You might want to post this in the Reef Aquariums Forum.

I suggest you read through this post for additional considerations: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

[Future]

Yea I know the basics about bristle worms, just didn't know if the "red" coloring was a distinguishing factor as like in Fire Coral.