Treatment Questions

[Derrick Gavin]

I went to one of the largest pet shops here in the Philippines and it was awesome to see fishes of all sorts. I was very tempted to buy one but remembered Lee's advice to cycling the tank for 8 weeks or so. My tank is on its 3rd week with the LR and sand in it.

Anyway, I noticed that these petshops actually DO NOT CARE much about the fishes they are selling. I read some posts here that the LFS goal is just to sell the fishes and get it to your tank alive regardless if it's sick or not.

Oh my! The tanks there got some most of the advanced systems I've ever seen but there are 2 problems. The fishes have black or white ich, skin lesions AND FAR TOO CROWDED IN ONE LARGE TANK! I felt so alarmed when I saw it.

My questions are these:

1. If ever I would have to buy fishes for my tank, I would just like to know some things: Treating diseases in particular and I have some specific questions here: For Antibiotics, is Amoxycillin effective and can be used to treat fish?

2. If there would be Brooklynella as well, I have read that you would have to do "Formalin Dips" for 60 minutes. My question is how many times a week will you do these dips? Is this effective for treating Skin Lesions as well?

3. For nutrition, can a marine fish be offered "white meat" of a freshwater fish? AND aside from clams, can mussels also be fed and is it nutricious for marine fish?

4. Methylene Blue, I've read, cures skin and gill flakes, fungus and velvet diseases. Is this true? Do we have a thread here that gives us specific steps on how to treat with Methylene Blue?

5. Aside from Copper and Hyposalinity, can Cryptocaryon be treated by Methylene Blue or Formalin as well?

I would like to apologize if these questions have been raised already but I can't seem to find it through thousands of posts here. If there are already posts made for my questions, kindly supply me the link and I'll read from there.

Thank you and please advise regarding these questions.

Derrick XXX

[leebca]

They are well thought out questions.

I have visited aquarium stores around the world. In some countries that are supposed to have a good reputation, I still find fish conditions that are horrible. I was so upset in one Berlin shop that I got into an argument with the owner. It was a short argument -- he claimed not to speak English and my German wasn't all that good. My point is that even in places that are supposed to be better, it is up to the owner how their livestock will be handled.

I can say this in general -- The majority of people in the trade (those that catch, export, import, wholesale and retail) consider marine live stock to be a commodity -- like a chair or an orange.

This is just one of the reasons that the hobbyist has to take action to protect their livestock (which become more like pets). Going slowly and carefully will get you very good results. Now to your questions. . .

1. Amoxicillin is a broads spectrum antibiotic, meaning that it is used on both Gram Positive and Gram Negative bacterial infections. The upside is that will address a wide variety of bacterial infections, the downside is that most marine fish are infected with Gram Negative bacteria when they are infected with bacteria. The bacteria in the biological filter are Gram Positive. So the use of this antibiotic could cause the biological filter to stop, be depressed, or fail to handle fish wastes when the fish probably isn't infected with those kinds of bacteria. I have no idea if this antibiotic will work in the marine aquarium. This antibiotic is usually given to people and people have a normal or neutral pH (though pills have to pass through the stomach acids). Fish as you know live in a higher pH (8) environment and that sometimes alters drugs and medications used for humans. Sometimes these drugs don't work or become poisons to the fish.

Try your best to find antibiotics used for marine fishes and avoid thinking up new things to use. You don't want to have to experiment with a sick fish -- you want to use something known to work properly.;;

See how many of these medications might be available to you either at your LFS, or maybe your LFS can order it, or maybe you can order it online from Europe or North America: Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet. It's good be prepared, however, these medications have a shelf life.

2. Most importantly, Formalin is never to be used on fish with open wounds. The medication becomes a poison. Thus a fish with one or more lesions is never treated with Formalin. Brooklynellosis can be treated with a series of diluted Formalin dips of 30 minutes each. The fish is treated every other day with a dip for at least 3 but preferably 5 times. However Brooklynellosis can also be treated by a series of freshwater dips. If and when you want to use Formalin, I'll provide some guidance. However, a lot of things must be controlled with this treatment so as not to kill the patient!

3. Marine fish eat a strict seafood diet. Use no land or freshwater products. All substitutes are of lower value -- some have no nutritional value. Mussels, clams, and cockle are all good choices IF they come from the sea. There are some mussels that are freshwater. When the whole organism is fed, it is nutritious. It cannot be the only thing fed, however. You'll find extensive information like this in the fish nutrition post: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition.

4. Methylene blue was one of the first medications used for freshwater ornamental fishes. It is still used for many freshwater pathogens. It is rarely used for treating marine fish disorders because there are more effective medications for our marine fishes. Under certain conditions methylene blue can be used to help control some marine parasites and pathogens, but it isn't always effective nor always reliable. Remember that the word 'control' does not mean 'kill' or 'cure.' Methylene blue still has some use today for fungal infections on marine fishes, but in reality, what it treats are pathogens that look like fungus, but are not true fungus. It is used more often because it is so readily available. Even for fungus, there are better meds to use. Each disease you listed has its own 'best' medication and treatment process which doesn't include methylene blue. Yet you'll probably find your LFS has a stock of it and sells it for saltwater fishes.

5. See 4. regarding methylene blue. In this case, it is not effective at all and eradicating the pathogen. Formalin treatment for fishes with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) has been shown to be effective. The fish has an increased chance to die from this kind of treatment. See the answer to 2. Marine Ich causes tiny open wounds in the fish. This is why a secondary bacterial infection often comes with a Marine Ich outbreak. So just review what I wrote about using Formalin on fish with open wounds. You can use it, but you're hurting the fish and definitely reducing its lifespan if not going to kill it outright. You may be able to say the Marine Ich was killed, but killing the patient is not a good way to do it.

Hope the above helps!

[Derrick Gavin]

This is definitely noted! So far my hungry mind is being fed. Thanks for being such a big help Lee. Much appreciated.

Derrick XXX

[Ninong]

Derrick,

Another problem with fish collected in the Philippines is that there is still a lot of cyanide collection going on. You need to try to find out which suppliers are doing things right and then try to find out if the LFS you are considering doing business with is getting fish from the good guys or not.

[Derrick Gavin]

I haven't bought anything yet but yes I would like to know about it. Thanks for bringing that one up Ninong. ;)

Derrick XXX

[Ninong]

Marine Aquarium Council certification.

[ReefBabies3]

Does anyone know where you can order formalin? Nobody in town carries it and i tried to order it online but the company said they were out and that you can't get it anymore.

[leebca]

Formalin is sometimes a challenge to acquire. It was used quite a bit by people that own ponds so pond supply stores often have it. That may not be a source if you live in Alaska, though.

Searching online is one way to try and find some (again, pond supply stores sometimes have it). Beyond this, a chemistry lab (university, college, vet school, med school, etc.) probably has it, or a pharmacy you might be friendly with might order it for you.

[ReefBabies3]

Thank you. I will try looking at the places you suggested.