[Danton]

Hi, I don't spend much time in forums but I can't seem to figure this one out nor any of the people I've spoken with. So if any of you can be of help I would really appreciate it.

About a month ago I did a routine water change. Unknowingly the membrane in my RO unit had seen better days and I put some poor quality water into the tank. I purchased a TDS meter and it was reading .029ppm. Supposedly anything over .010 is not good for aquariums. I have since purchased a whole new RO/DI unit and my readings are now .000. But prior is when my problems started.

First off, my parameters are PH=8.2, Nitrite=0, Ammonia=.01 and the temp is maintained at 78' F.


Three weeks ago my Harlequin Tuskfish stopped eating and about a week later he died. He basically just started to hide and not eat but other than that he appeared normal physically. I was shocked because I haven't lost a fish in two years and all the other fish still appeared healthy.

About four days after this my Lionfish stopped eating and his eyes started to get cloudy. So having anemones I wanted to play it safe so I went with Pimafix and Melafix combined. I have used this once in the past on my Maroon Clown with good results. But it didn't work this time. While in treatment my Clown trigger got a light powdery coat on him. Since no one was getting better after five days I decided to try another medication. I did 30% water change and put back new carbon in my media filter.

After 24 hours I started using Maracyn Plus. Being for both gram negative and gram positive I thought this would work. Nope... After four days of treatment and no improvement at all I stopped this treatment. Another water change and more fresh carbon was added to clean out the medication.

On the advice of my LFS I decided to give Quick Cure a try. After two days of this things were worse than ever. Now my Clown Trigger was dead. My Clown Grouper had cloudy eyes and had what appeared to be a thin coat of white slime on him. He would also rub himself against the sand and his appetite was gone.

Now I once again discontinued treatment and did the whole water change/carbon replacement deal. And just to make it clear there was no carbon being used during any of the treatments. Only after to help remove the old medication.

That was Wednesday. Since then I've added some Slime coat and am letting the fish get a break before I treat them again. The Lionfish now is very pale in certain areas still with cloudy eyes and doesn't move much. The Clown Grouper is basically the same though he is still swimming around. Now I do have a Picasso Trigger, and Maroon Clown and a 13" Banded Moray. So far they all still appear healthy and are eating normal.

But hears the kicker. A few days after my first fish got sick I noticed something small and white growing on the glass in the darker areas of the tank. I didn't think nothing at first but this stuff is spreading. It's on some of the back glass, some of the live rock and in the sump. These things are white, about 4-5 mm long and shaped like a cucumber. I have idea what this is but I do believe this is the cause of my problems. I attached a pic of this to help give you a more accurate idea. If you need a better one let me know and I'll see what I can do...

Sorry for short story but I didn't want to leave anything out.

Thanks,
Danton

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I'm sorry it was this situation that brought you here. Unfortunately, so much time has elapsed and so many useless attempts at curing an undiagnosed problem, that I'm not surprised the fish might be responding to the stressors of all the 'help' it has been given. It seems that the 'shotgun approach' has been used here, only with some products that have little impact on most marine pathogens.

Some observations:
1. Melafix and Primafix are covered in this post: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...dont-work.html The short version - it's a risk to use these since they are not specifically known to cure marine conditions.

2. Antibiotics are best administered in a hospital tank, since some destroy the biological filter. Using a broad spectrum antibiotic that kills both Gram Positive and Gram Negative bacteria would kill the biological filter. The results would be a decrease in water quality. Hence these kinds of treatments are only performed in a hospital tank where the hobbyist can better control water quality and not kill the biological filter in the main system.

3. Quick Cure = quick cash to the LFS. Your LFS must love you by now. You've bought a lot of 'cures' from them. Usually LFS doesn't keep fishes beyond the few days or weeks before they sell. Their knowledge of cures and supplements are limited to what the salespeople claim on the product, which is to say, they have no experience and very little knowledge of fish ailments. What knowledge they have accumulated is often from rumors and mis information which they are happy to spread.

4. Slime Coat -- Not sure about this product. Can you tell me more about it. Who makes it and is this its proper name?

5. Without a clear, up-close photo, can't help with the the things you see on the glass. The things on the rock look like a type of sponge. Their presence indicates a high amount of organics in the tank.

6. If you have a FOWLR aquarium, TDS readings of less than 3 ppm is usually good enough. A reef tank will require lower. I'm not sure who or where you got the info you did about TDS readings, but it sounds like poor advice. Where are you getting all those decimals from? The source water is as good in part as the water going through the treatment system. Start with real bad water, in some cases, and your result is better, but not great treated water.

You don't mention tank size, however I wonder if your tank is overstocked. These symptoms show this to be likely. The fishes you mentioned would need at least a 125 gallon or larger aquarium, unless they are dwarf or very young fishes.

I will need more information to go further into this:
How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration?.
List all specimens & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – you gave some. Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

[Ninong]

Hi Danton,

Originally Posted by Danton

I purchased a TDS meter and it was reading .029ppm.

Surely you meant to say 29 ppm and not .029 ppm, right? TDS meters do not read in fractions. (P.S. -- This is what my TDS meter looks like. Here's another picture.)

I have since purchased a whole new RO/DI unit and my readings are now .000.

Great, but it actually reads 000, not .000. The digital readout is in three places but without a decimal. In other words, it reads from 1 to 999.

Since then I've added some Slime coat...

I assume you mean Stress Coat, right? This is a dechlorinator. If you are using R.O./D.I. source water, you don't need this product. The manufacturer claims that this product contains "natural aloe vera." Fish do not need aloe vera. The manufacturer also claims that this product results in the fish producing a slime coating but without explaining how this happens. First off, the fish do not need this product to produce a slime coating, and secondly, I would be really interested in hearing the manufacturer explain exactly how they accomplish this trick. Are they including something that irritates the fish, causing it to produce excess slime?

In any event, you don't need this product at all, especially since you're using R.O./D.I. source water.

A few days after my first fish got sick I noticed something small and white growing on the glass in the darker areas of the tank. I didn't think nothing at first but this stuff is spreading. It's on some of the back glass, some of the live rock and in the sump. These things are white, about 4-5 mm long and shaped like a cucumber. I have idea what this is but I do believe this is the cause of my problems.

I agree with Lee that those little white things are almost certainly sponges (Scypha sp.). They're harmless.

[Ninong]

Danton,

In this photo from your profile, the white things appear to be sponges.

[Frag Hag]

Danton,

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles! I'm posting a thread from another forum that you might find helpful:


"Mysterious fish deaths are more common now (Flukes)
I’m starting this thread because over the past year I lost numerous of new fish for unexplained reasons. Until a few months ago I found that my fish were not dying of ich or velvet but FLUKES! Flukes are so common that I can even spot fish at the LFS that has symptoms of flukes.

Just a warning for anyone buying new fish from any LFS that a lot of fish carries flukes now. It’s more common in small and large Angels but I’ve seen them in small butterflies as well. I’m not sure about tangs since I haven’t purchase any of them the past year.

The obvious symptoms:

1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail.

4) Sudden loss of appetite. Fish was fine yesterday but today it’s not eating at all.

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing

If you can catch it early the fish will recover fine. If not they will never recover and stop eating completely. In my experience if I caught it after it stops eating for 3 days there’s a chance it will recover. Beyond that it’s usually too late.

Easy Treatment:

You can not see flukes on the fish but if you freshwater dip them you can see them literally fall off the fish from the eyes, gills and under the scales. Its amazing to see how much of it falls off. I kept saying "Where did all these flukes hid?" My small week old 3" Regal Angel had symptoms 1, 4 and 6 so I freshwater dipped it for 10 minutes. The next day his appetite came back. Same goes for my Chysyrus Angel and Goldflake Angel. Flukes are almost the same size and shape as sesame seeds but opaque white after a freshwater dip. Use a flashlight to find them because it’s hard to see the flukes against a white bucket.

Prazipro from Hikari is a great fluke cure as well. I once treated 5 fish that all had flukes. Using the recommended dosage and on the 2nd day my quarantine tank looked like it had a bad case of dandruff but actually they were dead flukes all over the water column.

If you freshwater dip your fish the flukes may come back. I had this happen to me. Some flukes lay eggs on the fish and some lay eggs on the gravel, rocks, etc. Only Prazipro or any fluke medication can kill the flukes in its egg stage. After searching Prazipro is the best fluke medication.

A 10 minute freshwater dip usually works for me. Why 10 minutes? Usually after 3 minute dip most flukes will fall off. Most fish will have flukes on the eye as well and there was one fluke that was still on the eye after 3 minutes. I had to wait till the 10th minute before that fluke finally came off."

Good Luck!

Shay
(who is still mourning her fluke carrying seahorses)

[Danton]

Originally Posted by leebca

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I'm sorry it was this situation that brought you here. Unfortunately, so much time has elapsed and so many useless attempts at curing an undiagnosed problem, that I'm not surprised the fish might be responding to the stressors of all the 'help' it has been given. It seems that the 'shotgun approach' has been used here, only with some products that have little impact on most marine pathogens.

Some observations:
1. Melafix and Primafix are covered in this post: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...dont-work.html The short version - it's a risk to use these since they are not specifically known to cure marine conditions.

2. Antibiotics are best administered in a hospital tank, since some destroy the biological filter. Using a broad spectrum antibiotic that kills both Gram Positive and Gram Negative bacteria would kill the biological filter. The results would be a decrease in water quality. Hence these kinds of treatments are only performed in a hospital tank where the hobbyist can better control water quality and not kill the biological filter in the main system.

3. Quick Cure = quick cash to the LFS. Your LFS must love you by now. You've bought a lot of 'cures' from them. Usually LFS doesn't keep fishes beyond the few days or weeks before they sell. Their knowledge of cures and supplements are limited to what the salespeople claim on the product, which is to say, they have no experience and very little knowledge of fish ailments. What knowledge they have accumulated is often from rumors and mis information which they are happy to spread.

4. Slime Coat -- Not sure about this product. Can you tell me more about it. Who makes it and is this its proper name?

5. Without a clear, up-close photo, can't help with the the things you see on the glass. The things on the rock look like a type of sponge. Their presence indicates a high amount of organics in the tank.

6. If you have a FOWLR aquarium, TDS readings of less than 3 ppm is usually good enough. A reef tank will require lower. I'm not sure who or where you got the info you did about TDS readings, but it sounds like poor advice. Where are you getting all those decimals from? The source water is as good in part as the water going through the treatment system. Start with real bad water, in some cases, and your result is better, but not great treated water.

You don't mention tank size, however I wonder if your tank is overstocked. These symptoms show this to be likely. The fishes you mentioned would need at least a 125 gallon or larger aquarium, unless they are dwarf or very young fishes.

I will need more information to go further into this:
How old is your tank? When did it originally cycle?
What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration?.
List all specimens & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
How long have you had this fish? If the fish was recently acquired (6 weeks or less), two more questions: Did you treat it or give it a dip before it went into the aquarium? How did you acclimate it – what procedure?
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Chemistries – you gave some. Do you test for Phosphate, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. Have these numbers been changing lately?
Water parameters – please give actual numbers (pH and your pH range, salinity or sp. gr. & range, temperature range)
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

Wow, lots of questions... And sorry about the decimal point while giving the TDS reading. And I meant to say Stress Coat not Slime Coat. API makes it.

The tank has been running 3.5 yrs now. It originally finished cycling after the fourth month.
The total gallonage would be about 110 including sump while also subtracting ten gallons for the sand and rocks.
I'm using a Bio-Rocker in place of the usual wet/dry or refugium.
For Carbon I use 2.5 cups made by Marineland and change it every 4 weeks. I also use 250ml of Purigen by Seachem.
I'm using a Coral Life 220 Protein Skimmer and the same brand 36wt UV sterilizer.
I have two Rio 80 powerheads to stave off any dead spots.
For lighting I'm using 65wt x 4 compacts by Coral Life. Two are 10,000k and two are 4600k. These are replaced yearly.
JBJ Lighting 1/3 hp chiller

Current 'livng' livestock:
1 10" Red Volitan Lionfish
1 4" Picaso Trigger
1 4" Maroon Clownfish.
1 5" Clown Grouper
1 12" Banded Moray
2 10" Sea Bae Anemones
2 5" Haitian Anemones
8 small cleaning snails

Recently lost:
1 3" Clown Trigger
1 4" Harliquen Tuskfish


I'm aware of the slight over crowding but the tank had been running like clock work for two years so I wasn't too concerned. Also all the fish knew their pecking order and they got along quite well and appeared content. I also don't use any quarantine method though I know this is recommended. The most recent addition was the Clown Trigger and that was 3 months ago.

Diet consists of Pro Salt frozen Krill and Silversides. I also use Formula One pellets as this is what the clownfish loves. I feed them every other day and just enough so that nothing is left on the floor after five minutes.

Supplements:
12 drops for Garlic Extreme once a week.
2 cap fulls of Zoe twice a week
2 cap fulls for Essential Elements once a week
I don't add anything to their food

Current water chemistry:
Ph - 8.22
Nitrite - 0.01
Ammonia 0.0
Phosphate is at 2.5
Specific gravity is 1.022 - I usually keep it at 1.020 but with the last water change it crept up a bit.
Temperature is set at 78' F
I do not test for alkalinity, calcium or magnesium.

Only recently did I notice some brown algae but I think this is due to all the medication. I normally have a few spots of green algae but they are small.

Maintenance schedule:
35 gal water change every month
Replace carbon every month
Replace Purigen as needed. Usually every 8 months.
Clean glass every two weeks.

Source water is RO/DI. Current TDS reading = 000.

The only thing I've done lately is replace the light bulbs.
Perform regular monthly maintenance and add the Clown Trigger over three months ago.

Thanks for the input!!!

-Danton

[Danton]

Originally Posted by Frag Hag

Danton,

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles! I'm posting a thread from another forum that you might find helpful:


"Mysterious fish deaths are more common now (Flukes)
I’m starting this thread because over the past year I lost numerous of new fish for unexplained reasons. Until a few months ago I found that my fish were not dying of ich or velvet but FLUKES! Flukes are so common that I can even spot fish at the LFS that has symptoms of flukes.

Just a warning for anyone buying new fish from any LFS that a lot of fish carries flukes now. It’s more common in small and large Angels but I’ve seen them in small butterflies as well. I’m not sure about tangs since I haven’t purchase any of them the past year.

The obvious symptoms:

1) Fish twitching the head side to side once in a while like if wanted to shake something off his head.

2) Discolored blotches of skin (Most people think this is velvet or some bacterial infection and misdiagnose it with antibiotics)

3) Frayed fins or tail.

4) Sudden loss of appetite. Fish was fine yesterday but today it’s not eating at all.

5) Cloudy eye(s)

6) Rapid breathing

If you can catch it early the fish will recover fine. If not they will never recover and stop eating completely. In my experience if I caught it after it stops eating for 3 days there’s a chance it will recover. Beyond that it’s usually too late.

Easy Treatment:

You can not see flukes on the fish but if you freshwater dip them you can see them literally fall off the fish from the eyes, gills and under the scales. Its amazing to see how much of it falls off. I kept saying "Where did all these flukes hid?" My small week old 3" Regal Angel had symptoms 1, 4 and 6 so I freshwater dipped it for 10 minutes. The next day his appetite came back. Same goes for my Chysyrus Angel and Goldflake Angel. Flukes are almost the same size and shape as sesame seeds but opaque white after a freshwater dip. Use a flashlight to find them because it’s hard to see the flukes against a white bucket.

Prazipro from Hikari is a great fluke cure as well. I once treated 5 fish that all had flukes. Using the recommended dosage and on the 2nd day my quarantine tank looked like it had a bad case of dandruff but actually they were dead flukes all over the water column.

If you freshwater dip your fish the flukes may come back. I had this happen to me. Some flukes lay eggs on the fish and some lay eggs on the gravel, rocks, etc. Only Prazipro or any fluke medication can kill the flukes in its egg stage. After searching Prazipro is the best fluke medication.

A 10 minute freshwater dip usually works for me. Why 10 minutes? Usually after 3 minute dip most flukes will fall off. Most fish will have flukes on the eye as well and there was one fluke that was still on the eye after 3 minutes. I had to wait till the 10th minute before that fluke finally came off."

Good Luck!

Shay
(who is still mourning her fluke carrying seahorses)

Originally Posted by Ninong

Hi Danton,





Surely you meant to say 29 ppm and not .029 ppm, right? TDS meters do not read in fractions. (P.S. -- This is what my TDS meter looks like. Here's another picture.)


Great, but it actually reads 000, not .000. The digital readout is in three places but without a decimal. In other words, it reads from 1 to 999.


I assume you mean Stress Coat, right? This is a dechlorinator. If you are using R.O./D.I. source water, you don't need this product. The manufacturer claims that this product contains "natural aloe vera." Fish do not need aloe vera. The manufacturer also claims that this product results in the fish producing a slime coating but without explaining how this happens. First off, the fish do not need this product to produce a slime coating, and secondly, I would be really interested in hearing the manufacturer explain exactly how they accomplish this trick. Are they including something that irritates the fish, causing it to produce excess slime?

In any event, you don't need this product at all, especially since you're using R.O./D.I. source water.


I agree with Lee that those little white things are almost certainly sponges (Scypha sp.). They're harmless.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't think my problem is Flukes but I'll do some searches and learn more about this. Also, I'm glad to hear these are sponges! They were really freaking me out!

Thanks,
Danton

[leebca]

Thanks Danton for your thoroughness. Still, I may have missed it, but I don't see the size of your display anywhere. From the photos Ninong had posted, I'd say that was a very small display tank. Although gallonage has importance for bio-load, the display tank dimensions is what the fish 'sees' and has to live in.

What you consider to be a "slight over crowding" is in fact, the main problem. You see, marine fish grow. Most continue to grow. They need room to expand. If you acquire marine fish and invertebrates of a certain size that 'fit' the aquarium, then in some time soon, they will outgrow the system. You may have begun to have the right sized tank with the right sized specimens, but that was short lived. A good policy to acquire fish and put them into a display that will match their adult size and ultimate 'reasonable' length, unless you plan on them 'tank hopping.'

I think if it wasn't for the fact that you are using a good chemical filtration that the fishes would have suffered earlier. I don't know that skimmer, but it should be sized very large for that bio-load. See this post, where it discusses sizing a skimmer to match what you have to what is recommended: What is Water Quality.

The mix of fishes is not particularly good for a community. The Clown Trigger is known to be abusive. The subtlety of their abuse can often escape the human eye. We obviously can see fights and chases, but fish communicate very subtly to each other their dominance and intolerance. As space is a premium, this tension would worsen as they grew.

The food is below the desired nutrition needs of the fish. You should read and follow this: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition One important point here is that pellets are usually held together with wheat products. Please read the label of the pellets. Wheat is not digested by marine fish. It goes through and into the aquarium to become food for bacteria. This increases the bio-load and in effect, the bacteria become a part of the bio-load, adding to the reduced ability of the system to keep up with the marine life wastes.

Zoe is a good vitamin. You soak food in it so the fish take it internally. If you've been adding it to the water, the fish do gain some benefit, but those bacteria get to it very fast and that is an inefficient means of supplementing vitamins to the marine fishes.

The Stress Coat product does not help the fish. As Ninong pointed out, it treats water by neutralizing some of the poisons in it. I would hope your water doesn't contain poisons. However, you didn't mention your source water. I hope you are not using tap water.

My evaluation is that these fish cannot handle the space stress. Stressors take their toll and a certain set of them take time to do a fish in. In this case the major stressors are:
1. space
2. diet
3. environment (tankmates, water quality, etc.)

My suggestions would be to:
1. Verify the skimmer is large enough -- with enough flow;
2. Change carbon every two weeks;
3. Change diet;
4. Add fat AND vitamin supplements to the foods;
5. Change or reactivate the Purigen every 3 months;
6. Reduce the bio-load (i.e., find homes for at least one or two of the current fish inhabitants); and
7. Do the 35 gallon water change every 3 weeks rather than monthly.

Just verify that your source water is tops. I think if you follow the above suggestions, stop adding other products to the water (except the elements), the remaining marine life will be fine. The guidance is to: reduce bio-load; reduce pollutant build up; reduce crowding; and improve the display environment.

[Danton]

Originally Posted by leebca

Thanks Danton for your thoroughness. Still, I may have missed it, but I don't see the size of your display anywhere. From the photos Ninong had posted, I'd say that was a very small display tank. Although gallonage has importance for bio-load, the display tank dimensions is what the fish 'sees' and has to live in.

What you consider to be a "slight over crowding" is in fact, the main problem. You see, marine fish grow. Most continue to grow. They need room to expand. If you acquire marine fish and invertebrates of a certain size that 'fit' the aquarium, then in some time soon, they will outgrow the system. You may have begun to have the right sized tank with the right sized specimens, but that was short lived. A good policy to acquire fish and put them into a display that will match their adult size and ultimate 'reasonable' length, unless you plan on them 'tank hopping.'

I think if it wasn't for the fact that you are using a good chemical filtration that the fishes would have suffered earlier. I don't know that skimmer, but it should be sized very large for that bio-load. See this post, where it discusses sizing a skimmer to match what you have to what is recommended: What is Water Quality.

The mix of fishes is not particularly good for a community. The Clown Trigger is known to be abusive. The subtlety of their abuse can often escape the human eye. We obviously can see fights and chases, but fish communicate very subtly to each other their dominance and intolerance. As space is a premium, this tension would worsen as they grew.

The food is below the desired nutrition needs of the fish. You should read and follow this: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition One important point here is that pellets are usually held together with wheat products. Please read the label of the pellets. Wheat is not digested by marine fish. It goes through and into the aquarium to become food for bacteria. This increases the bio-load and in effect, the bacteria become a part of the bio-load, adding to the reduced ability of the system to keep up with the marine life wastes.

Zoe is a good vitamin. You soak food in it so the fish take it internally. If you've been adding it to the water, the fish do gain some benefit, but those bacteria get to it very fast and that is an inefficient means of supplementing vitamins to the marine fishes.

The Stress Coat product does not help the fish. As Ninong pointed out, it treats water by neutralizing some of the poisons in it. I would hope your water doesn't contain poisons. However, you didn't mention your source water. I hope you are not using tap water.

My evaluation is that these fish cannot handle the space stress. Stressors take their toll and a certain set of them take time to do a fish in. In this case the major stressors are:
1. space
2. diet
3. environment (tankmates, water quality, etc.)

My suggestions would be to:
1. Verify the skimmer is large enough -- with enough flow;
2. Change carbon every two weeks;
3. Change diet;
4. Add fat AND vitamin supplements to the foods;
5. Change or reactivate the Purigen every 3 months;
6. Reduce the bio-load (i.e., find homes for at least one or two of the current fish inhabitants); and
7. Do the 35 gallon water change every 3 weeks rather than monthly.

Just verify that your source water is tops. I think if you follow the above suggestions, stop adding other products to the water (except the elements), the remaining marine life will be fine. The guidance is to: reduce bio-load; reduce pollutant build up; reduce crowding; and improve the display environment.

Lee,

The tank dimensions are 48"x24"x18". The protein skimmer is rated for a 220 gal so I should be ok there. The reason I change the Purigen so infrequently is because it never gets dirty. It turns a light beige but never anything darker like it is supposed too when it's exhausted. And it's used the proper way where water is forced through it, not just over it. I figure that the Bio-Rocker is removing more than it's share of ammonia, nitrates and nitrites so that the Purigen really just ends up acting like a safety net.

The source water is tap but it's run through a 6 stage RO/DI unit. And that now I have a TDS meter and a chlorine test kit I'll make sure they only get the best water possible.

And yes I'm aware that the Clown Trigger can become one large, mean fish. Beautiful but downright nasty in the temperament department. When my last one reached 5" I took him back and exchanged him for a for a just under 3" one. Maybe that's what you mean by "tank hopping."

Anyways thanks again for the advice and I'll most certainly read those links about water quality and nutrition.

Thanks again,
Danton

[Lance]

You have two 80 powerheads in a 110 gallon tank. You want atleast 20 times exchange. This means 2200 GPH or 2 powerheads putting out atleast 100 GPH. You fish need oxygen and this is suppled from water flow and a surface exchange or gas exchange at the water surface. The O2 they need you cant see. With low oxygen then the fish are weak and can get sick.

Carbon helps with ammonia but has a short life and needs to be replaced often to work right. But even with carbon your LR and LS do a much better job of converting ammonia into harmless nitrogen much better then carbon.

I say this to only help , you have an actuall reef in your living room. Many problems take time to appear and like in your case can be confusing . Alls been fine so you think your basic setup is fine whene it isnt. Dont add any additives and dont change more then 25% water volume within 1 week. You need to rethink your basic setup. And i think flow is number one.
Flow and amount of LR and LS and LR and powerhead placement play a large roll then your feeding habits.
Get a book for referance and learn and understand the basics or you will never have total control of your tank.

You had low flow which ment low O2 , well as fish and O2 demand grew your O2 stayed the same so the fish died slow and painfull. If your O2 drops and fish suffer then even if you fix this they may still die within weeks.

Like i always say , anyone can get a tank going and seem to have success but most trouble takes time from months to yrs and this leads to un needed additives and un needed reactors.

[leebca]

Danton,

Thanks for the additional information. Slow to respond because I can see no sense of urgency in responding. I sometimes pack by reverse flow cannister column with Purigen. I like the product, but I have analyzed 'used' Purigen and have found that before it turns color, some of its usefulness has ceased. So now I change with a set time of use, like carbon.

With regards to what Purigen does to water, you may have fallen into the marketing hype that Seachem puts out on the product. The product does not remove ammonia, nitrites, nor nitrates from the water. If you will read their advertising closely, Purigen removes organics from the water (which they have cleverly worded would lead to ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. This is a quote from their website: Purigen

. . .controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds.

This is the same thing activated carbon does.

Unfortunately, this simple statement is technically wrong. These organics do not 'realease' anything. You probably know that bacteria utilize these organics and the waste products of the bacteria are ammonia and nitrites and nitrates. Such marketing is very misleading.

"Tank hopping" I've just added to the glossary of terms: Glossary of FOWLR Terms is: Moving a fish from a display tank to a larger display tank when that fish gets too large for the tank it is in. Many marine fishes can be kept in small aquariums then, when they outgrow the tank, can be moved to a larger one. But some fishes, like Large (adult) Angels, Tangs, and Rabbittfishes for instance need a large swimming space right from the time they are acquired and would be stressed in a tank that to humans, would seem a large enough space or length. Thus these fishes should not acquired with the intent to 'later' put into a larger tank.

Although the deaths you've experienced could have been from a pathogen, I doubt it still. It is simply stressors at work. There are no symptoms of a pathogen at work.

I didn't address the brown algae you've mentioned. If it is truly diatoms, then silicates are finding their way into your system -- either the source water, salt mix, foods, or additives are bringing them in. You may want to look into that. Not too many (good) test kits are out there for silicates, however with the presence of diatoms, the readings should be low or 0 detected by test kits.

Good luck!

[leebca]

Lance,

You've posted several times in the Forums I moderate here on Reefland. Some have a couple of errors, but I have remained silent -- until now. The last post below contains mis information and technically unsound information in a rather significant quantity.

Reading this last post I would note several such mis information and technically unsound suggestions:
1. The powerhead flows must be 20X. Not true. The combination of the powerheads AND the return pump flow should be, for a FOWLR system between 8X-10X of the system volume. Remember the poster posted in the FO Forum. The only deviation from a purely FO system is some anemones and I would still classify the system more FO than reef. Since no problem with them has been reported, I'd say this is indicative that they at least are satisfied with the current circulation. Since Danton didn't provide return pump flow information, no one can say if he has this minimum circulation or not. And when that info is forthcoming, the target is 8-10X system volume per hour or more.

2. The post implies that the problem with the fish is low oxygen. Yet Danton provided no indication of fish symptoms of irregular breathing, which would be profound in a low oxygen environment. This assumption or suggestion is unfounded.

3. Carbon helps with ammonia. Very little. Its main function, like the Purigen Danton is using, is to remove organics from the water. Your statement is misleading in a way similar to what Seachem has posted.

4. The post suggests that large water changes are not good. Wrong. If done properly, large water changes can be performed daily. Anthony Calfo in fact likes to make 100% water changes to some of his tanks. He calls it, 'Low tide.' A large water change is an excellent way of exporting wastes and any build ups of 'end products' to bacterial activity.

5. Don't add additives. Wrong. Additives are essential to maintain alkalinity, calcium, magnesium and micro elements. In the confines of a marine system, these things are used or altered too quickly to be provided solely by water changes.

6. LR and LS play a large role in feeding habits. This is a mystery to me. Never heard of such a thing. I have owned aquariums with no LR and with LR and I feed my fishes the proper nutrition they need, in the same quantities, whether there is or isn't LR present.

7. Near the end of the post it is suggested that low oxygen caused the deaths of the fishes and that such deaths were slow, painful and even if corrected would not immediately help the fish. I can find no evidence of this being the case. See 2. In addition, the pain of fish is not well documented. So far science is just getting a handle on whether or not fish feel pain. You may be getting into an area known as personification anthropomorphism. Avoid such evaluations.

8. The last paragraph in the post is a mystery and not substantiated by any reason given early on in the post. Reactors and add-on equipment all has its purpose. When used properly and clearly understood as to what it does and doesn't do, can increase the bio-load capacity of the system. Because of some of these pieces of equipment, the bio-load capacity of Danton's system is indeed increased.

I don't want to go through your posts to correct them. It is not a good use of my moderator time. On the other hand, I can't let them stand in a Forum I moderate when they are misleading and/or provide mis-information. A lot of new people to the hobby as well as seasoned hobbyists count upon us for sound information and guidance, so I have to make sure such information and guidance is provided. I don't want Reefland to get a reputation of spreading or supporting mis information.

I've closed this thread. If Danton or you need to further post, a new thread would be good, referencing this thread. Thank you for your interest in Reefland.

[leebca]

I've closed this thread. Additional discusson may continue in another thread with reference to this one, if needed.