Ich tank! My story.

[Parad1s3lost]

I am currently running a 55 gallon tank that is about 5 and a half months old.
Fish only with live rock though I would like to push towards some beginning reefing in a few months time.

Currently I have three small (around 1") yellowtail damsels, a pair of medium ocellaris clowns (2"-2.5" ea.) and a baby yellow tang (2")

I have around 60 lbs of live rock currently in the system and another 15 lbs i am curing.

The substrate is aragonite sand, 3-4" deep all around.

I have an Aquaclear 110 powerfilter with foam, carbon, anti-phos pad, and (until today) a bag of the bio substrate for bacterial colonies (will get to this).

I do have a skimmer, it is a seaclone lol, but i made a few modifications to it and it does remove some gunk periodically.

I had originally filled the tank up with conditioned tap water, but after it had finished cycling i have been performing 5 gallon water changes every week with RO/DI water.

There is hair algae on the walls occasionally but i think the tang finds it and eats it lol, also i had dosed with Kordon ICH Attack, and it caused a massive bloom of red slime algae.

I took a saturday and cleaned the whole tank and replaced the carbon filtration though and cleaned out the skimmer and filter and the red slime never returned.

Tank is currently running at 81 F, S.G 1.023, pH 8.1, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20 ppm nitrate (water change soon).

OK so that's the stats of my tank.

I am relatively sure what has caused this problem anyway. We inherited a heniocus butterfly fish at petco from some guy who was trying to return it due to the fact that he had a triggerfish in the same tank as it and it didn't work out (obviously), i knew it had ich, but i put it in my tank for a few hours (like an idiot) and then took it out and put it in a 10 gallon quarantine. After about 2 weeks in the quarantine, the nitrite spiked and he looked incredibly stressed, (but the ich had stopped appearing like 3 days earlier i know this was not soon enough though), so i put him back in my tank. He died a month later after getting severly infected again, and also giving it to the baby tank i have in my tank.

After a limited engagement (2.5 weeks) with Kordon's "Reef safe (lol)" Ich Attack medication, which seemed to have atleast kept the ich at bay and from infecting the other tank mates, I got tired of dosing the relatively expensive junk twice a day. Additionally, the instructions had said that it should have worked in less than two weeks and that if it didnt, then to double or triple the dose (LOL). Anyway, as i stated earlier i took a saturday and cleaned up the tank since there was a massive red algae bloom and did a 20% water change.

After this i started to see the rest of the fish start to flash with ich, first starting with one of my clowns then the other a bit, and one of my damsels. Presently it would seem as if the tang has fought it off, and the rest of the fish seem to be doing OK, but i really just want to rid myself of this paracite once and for all.

Last night i set up a 30 gallon QT tank and filled it with salt water. I will be adjusting the params to as close to my DT as possible. I took the bio substrate that was in my Aquaclear filter in my 55 and put it in the cheap over the side filter i am running in the QT, along with an ammonia reduction filter pad (the kind that you cut from a sheet). Additionally i am aerating the tank with a stone inside filter and have filled it with random clean pvc fittings and pipes.

Here are my questions:

When can i move all of these fish in?
Obviously it is semi-dire that i get them in since who knows when the disease will take a turn for the worst and start killing them off quicker.

I know that you are only supposed to quarantine one fish at a time, but i want to let the tank fallow out for 4-6 weeks so that the paracite will be completely eliminated and never be seen again.

I am worried about ammonia spikes since the tank isn't cycled even though i used some of the substrate from my display tank (i don't have too much faith in this method). I have one of the Ammonia Alert displays stuck to the wall of the tank though. Question is, can i just keep dosing it with Ammo Lock or an equivalent ammonia detoxifying chemical for the period that the fish are in the tank?

I am sure i left alot out but that is all i can think of at the moment.
Thanks alot,

[leebca]

Thanks for your post. I hope others may see how many things didn't work out for you in your attempts to handle the parasite by alternative methods. There are just three ways to cure Marine Ich and none include 'reef-safe' medications. You'll find a lot of answers to your questions in these two posts:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
and
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...e-process.html

The only advice I will give and provide is what is in the best interests of the fish. So you won't find much sympathy for the work you have ahead.

1. What's most important is to get the fish cured as soon as possible. Move the fish to the quarantine tank immediately. You will watch for ammonia and nitrite signs. If any show up, make large water changes to control these until the biological filter takes hold. This may mean 2 or 3 water changes per day; removing all uneaten food; removing all visual signs of waste; and keeping the tank very clean.

2. In this case, since the fish are presumably only infected with one parasite, putting them together is okay for the treatment.

3. Leave the display go fallow for 8 weeks, no less. Read the above posts.

4. There should be no substrate in the hospital/quarantine tank. Using some of the filter material in the outside filter is a great idea. But, no substrate. Regarding your concerns about ammonia and nitrite, see 1. above.

5. The Ammonia alert tabs were not made for saltwater and they work very poorly for this. Do not use dip sticks, either. Perform no less than 3 tests with a test kit for both ammonia and nitrite every day. Test about 1-2 hours after a feeding and before lights out. There should be none detectable in order to skip a large water change.

6. I would have thought that after all the chemical dosing you've done that you would have come to the conclusion that additives are not very good for the tank, the fish, nor their condition. Whether you treat with copper or use the hyposalinity method, do not dose with chemicals. Chemicals may interact with the medication or the treatment method. The sheet you cut that absorbs ammonia is worthwhile to continue to use as well as the product Algone. These are absorbents and don't put things into the water. Stick with chemical absorbents rather than additives. ;;

Read through those two posts very closely, please. If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask. We're here to help!

[Parad1s3lost]

Hey Lee,

Thanks for responding to my post so quickly and with such detail. I am currently in the process of trying to catch my fish! Anyway by tonight i should have them all in the QT, one more question though.

Do you think i should wait for the ammonia/nitrite to subside before medicating the tank with copper? I am using Mardel's Coppersafe,which i found out after calling the manufacturer that it should give copper readings of the 2.0 ppm range because it is a certain form of chelated copper which the test kit obviously knocks all copper out of solution chelated or not.

Anyway, wish me luck!

Thanks alot

[leebca]

I'm only aware that CopperSafe isn't. That is, it isn't very gentle or safe on marine fishes. I've always recommended that if you can't use Cupramine, then the last choice should be CopperSafe.

Properly complexed or chelated copper should not have a problem with ammonia or nitrites in the tank.

Be sure to use the copper test kit the medicine manufacturer recommends and target the concentration the medicine manufacturer recommends.

Good luck!

[Parad1s3lost]

Questions about fallowing:

I am thinking about disconnecting the Seaclone i am running and using the powerhead for circulation of water onto the live rock. Is it fine to not have a skimmer since the tank will not have much of a bio load on it?

I want to add more live rock to the tank while it is fallowing. Is this a bad idea? I will probably add it sometime this week. Maybe another 40 lbs or close.

Should I keep adding a tiny bit of fish food to the tank and continue with my weekly or twice-monthly water changes to keep the bio filter in shape? Or can i just monitor the levels and make decisions as needed?

How much water movement in the QT? I have all of my fishes in the tank right now, and i have the small Top Fin 30 filter, and a Koralia 1 water fan running directed towards the front glass. Is this okay?

Also, in addition to the PVC, I placed a large ornamental piece of plastic piece of "rock imitation" with holes in it. I only did this because my fish LOVE it, in the display most of them (other than two of the damsels) stayed near it or hid in it when they got scared. Is this alright?

I'll post some pics of my fish area once I've cleaned up! Its in a disheveled way right now

[leebca]

Keep asking questions you need to:

1. It is best to keep the fallow system running 'normal.' You want to maintain temperature and all equipment running. Don't disconnect, remove or cut any feature, equipment, or part of the system out during the fallow time. Keep lights on as usual, too. Everything as if fish where there.

2. You can add live rock at any time BUT the 8 weeks time starts or begins when you add the last bit of live rock, invertebrate(s), or other non-fish item with salt water or marine life.

3. All things (even water changes) the same. (See 1.) Feed the live rock or any other invertebrate life forms (e.g., snails, worms, pods, etc.) in the tank. There must be something alive in there. If your tank doesn't have snails, it's a very good time to install a herd -- both carnivores and herbivores. Good time to put in any clean-up crew additions, too. Feeding them is the thing to do, not just putting organics (fish food) into the tank. If you do add food and it isn't eaten, remove it after 24 hours; wait another 24 hours and add more. Follow that routine. Just remember, the 8-week clock starts after the last addition of any life or living rock or anything that comes with saltwater. For ideas what to add please read this post: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

4. For circulation in the 30g QT all I would do is put in three sponge filters operated by air pump(s). That will circulate the water enough and disturb the surface to facilitate gas exchange. At the same time, it will get the biological filter going. The QT doesn't need a lot of circulation; just the little that sponge filters provide will be enough.

5. Plastic decoration is okay. I encourage the use of it and resin based decorations in the QT. A QT doesn't have to be bland. Adding fake live rock, corals, etc. can still be make the QT simulate a reef yet be a true hospital tank. A QT doesn't have to be boring (for fish or human!). To be totally conservative, such items should not be 'new' when put into the QT, but first well cleaned off and then well seasoned having been in saltwater for some time. Since the piece you mention I assume has been 'seasoned' then I think it a fine addition.

You are thinking along very good lines. Keep up the good work! Be patient and diligent!

[Parad1s3lost]

The story continues!

Okay, so the six fish have been in quarantine for a day now. Can nitrite form without ammonia? I haven't detected ANY ammonia in the QT since it has been put up.
The quarantine has the ammonia absorbent pad, and i also added a small amount of the hydrosulfite based ammonia neutralizer in the morning just in case it rose drastically while i was gone all day (work). It is the Kent Ammonia Detox.

Anyway, so i tested the tank when i got home from work and it showed 0 ppm of ammonia. Awesome or so i thought

For some reason i thought that if there was no ammonia detected since it had been put up, i thought logically then there should be low or non existant nitrite.

WRONG!

The levels were found to be slightly above 0.1 ppm !
Ahhh. So i prepared a 35% water change.

The fish do not seem stressed, they even ate heartily when i fed them.
Perhaps i was reading the test wrong? I had my girlfriend verify, but you know how those dropper color comparison tests are..

Anyway, questions i have are:

1. Can there be bacteria in the tank that eliminates Ammonia without bacteria present that eliminate Nitrite even though i used filter media from my main tank?

2. Once this is all done and i want to keep this colony of bacteria alive in case i need to do this again, can i put it back in the DT? Will the copper adsorb into the media causing a problem for the animals in my DT?

3. Does copper kill nitrifying bacteria?

Thanks lee!

[leebca]

I'm glad you're asking questions rather than trying to figure out things on your own.

1. Yes -- in a way. The bacteria ARE there, but the second group of bacteria are 'slow' to recover from the relocation. That is, the bacteria that convert nitrites to nitrates haven't geared up yet like the bacteria have that make nitrites from ammonia. OR, the chemical filtration you are using to remove ammonia takes care of the excess ammonia, but some ammonia still gets converted to nitrite and those bacteria are functional, but the ones that convert nitrites to nitrates may not have geared up yet. Either way, you get results like you experienced. ALWAYS better to be conservative and do the water change.

2. Not the thing to do. Since you have treated with copper there is copper now in the filter. That must not get back to the DT. What you can do, right now, is put a brand new (never before used) sponge filter (or 2 or 3) into the DT system and have it/them running constantly to become loaded with the right bacteria. In the future then, it/they will be ready to use.

3. Rarely (assuming proper dosage). Mostly what happens is that the copper 'shocks' the bacteria and they stop or slow metabolism. This gives the hobbyist the impression they are 'dead' (because they see readings of ammonia and/or nitrites) but the bacteria are still there and quite alive. The slow addition of Cupramine helps not only the fish to acclimate to the copper, but also the bacteria. (Cupramine is added in two stages). The bacteria need time to adjust to the copper also. They do and will. Like many things in this hobby, time will accomplish this. HOWEVER, the bacteria you have there could already be 'adapted' to copper and the addition of copper meds doesn't have any effect on them whatsoever. In this case the test kit results would keep showing ammonia and nitrites as 'not detected.'

Keep in mind that low concentrations of nitrite (usually under 0.3 ppm depending on the fish) is a chronic poison -- it harms the fish over time. So in the meantime, the fish seem healthy and eating well (as you've reported). Higher concentrations of nitrite act like an acute poisoning causing quick or nearly immediate reactions and even death.

[Parad1s3lost]

Still fighting an uphill battle with nitrites in the tank
I have done 30% water changes every two days but to not much avail.

Preparing another one today, just hoping the bacteria will take hold soon.

[Parad1s3lost]

UPDATE

Coming up on 4 weeks now, the ich is all gone and today i have just started doing water changes without the medication in it.

I am so tempted to transfer my fish back in this weekend! Some people say that the tank should be left for a minimum of 4 weeks.
However i do know that most people claim 6-8 weeks is a minimum range.

Has anyone ever had an experience where the ich came back after a 4 week quarantine/fallow?

[leebca]

I've had Marine Ich reappear at 5 weeks of being fallow.