Scooter Blenny questions

[plantweanie]

Alas, the care of the Scooter Blenny has as many oppinions as there are people, so here we go:

Like my other critters, I purchased believing he was an easy keeper. He is no skinnier now than he was when I got him, though it took a week to finally cater to his feeding preferences: prawn eggs buried in the substrate in a certain corner, releasing tigger pods every other day, live brine shrimp. Actually, today was his first feeding of live brine and the little guy was cliff diving to get at them. His dorsal was up the whole time. As much as he was bouncing around the rocks and substrate, it looked like he was having a blast.

This is where it gets wierd. Since I have confirmed eating, he has not grown fatter but his appearance is changing. He was gray and black. Now, his tail is banding red, his finds are getting yellow bands and his head and 'neck' are getting blue spots (like are on a yellow watchman goby).

As I was picking up more pods for the kid tonite, I mentioned to the sales person that he is coloring out. to that I was told he is sick. When I mentioned the behavior over the live brine, the guy still insisted he was sick.

So, Sigmond (Blenny) has not fattened up, but he does not appear to have lost weight. He is sporting colors he did not have when I bought him. He is alert and mobile. In the presence of live brine he is downright acrobatic. I think he is a little longer than he was when I got him a couple weeks ago, but the husband disagrees. Is Sigmond sick? Is coloring bad? If he is growing lengthwise (not confirmed) is it possible that he is not simultaneously fattening?

pics attatched are showing the blue spots on one and a somewhat blurry shot showing the yellow on his fins and the red on his tail. also, to see what his body shape is.

Is my fish kid ok???

[zhenya]

Since no one responded in a few days I moved your thread to fish forum. I think Lee is the right person to ask your questions about this fish. By the way, it is not a Blenny at all, it belong to the Family Callionymidae (dragonets), Synchiropus ocellatus.

PS. Here's a link to general information about this fish
Synchiropus ocellatus, Ocellated dragonet: aquarium

[leebca]

This particular fish is one of the group I call the pod eaters. They need a special bit of training before they are put into your display tank. It is one of the fishes that benefits from a quarantine process not only to check for disease but for training what and how to eat prepared foods.

Please read this post closely: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...tml#post186916. You'll find this has links within this post that you should also read. I know. . .A lot of reading. I hope you like reading and that you can absorb things from reading.

To back up and train this fish, is really the thing to do -- and very hard to do, I might add.

If you will be patient and read this long post, you'll find good info about food and marine fish nutrition: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Giving the above a good read, you'll find that brine shrimp are not something your fish can live on. It really should only be offered a few times every 21 feedings and then, only bio-load (gut loaded) brine shrimp.

Back to your immediate concerns -- The fish is not acclimating well. Coloration and patterns are changing in part due to this stress and in an attempt to adapt to the surroundings it is in.

The fish should come out of this condition IF it finds conditions excellent in its new home (water quality, environment, nutrition, etc.). However, on the point of nutrition, it may never get what it needs and in effect slowly die. Even if you learn what foods to feed it, the fish may not know how to eat it.

How to proceed is quite up to you. But, we're here to help.

[plantweanie]

I started using the jar bar suggestion in one of the links you provided. Works like a charm! this morning, as soon as the jar went in, he went right to it, so, it certainly didn't take long for him to figure it out!

Also, i compared his body shape to the pics on one of the links you posted. he is thinner than the ones in the pics. because he is thinner, i increased him from twice to 3 times a day feedings, and am watching him eat each time.

I make him finish his meal by removing the jar as soon as he leaves it. this morning he ate all of his breakfast without leaving. so, training is going well, but...

He only seems to eat live t. pods, prawn eggs and arcti pods. from some of the links you posted, i can't tell if this is enough to meet his requirements. Please let me know... also, is 3 times a day enough?

[leebca]

I'm glad to hear of the progress. Very good!

Actually, these fish are higher up the IQ range (as marine fishes go) as far as I've seen (my personal opinion).

You might want to try one of those spot feeding tubes (sold for feeding corals and inverts). Many of the pod eating bottom dwellers come to recognize the 'pipe' as a feeding tube. When I train mine in a QT after some time I don't even get the feeding tube more than an inch into the water when the fish 'attacks' the tube for its food.

The tube allows for a mix of live and frozen-thawed foods with the slow removal of the live foods. After that, it is a matter of reducing the use of the tube to carry the food, but putting the tube into the water and letting food fall from the top of the tank.

If other tank mates are not going to allow the fish to get their share of sinking foods, then the tube is a continual feeding method.

3 times a day is minimum and okay, in my opinion. If you or someone else is available for more feedings, that is even better.

Those foods aren't going to bring with them the wide variety of vitamins, minerals, and proteins this fish will need for a very long aquarium life. Expanding the menu to a homemade food, or prepared foods you can soak in vitamin and or fat supplements is the direction you want to take.

The current diet is not wrong. In fact, it is pretty good. For long term health it will need 'more.'

As you're working with the diet issues, keep in mind the fact that, your fish is actually eating 'dead' food (the eggs), so expanding that is possible.

[plantweanie]

thank you oh great guru of the reef tank world! as i am on day 2 of being rained out of work i have been searching high and low for info, including, but not limited to going back to the lfs (getting so good i am using the acronyms now ) to look at their scooters to compare to the condition of mine. i am pleased to say theirs are skinner and are not showing any blues, reds or yellows like mine, so at least i know i am on the right track. brought home blood worms and cyclopese to add to the mix. am also adding a megaflow refugium just to have a regular live feed for this fellow. (you do realize I am up to almost $400 to appease 1 fish, right?)

coupla holes in my research and a search of this site hasn't answered some of the questions.

1. how long after hatching does a brine shrimp not need to be 'enriched'?. mine are fed from day 1 with a brine food high in amino acids. but i am getting conflicting results as to whether continually feeding them keeps the fat content up.

2. the 29g tank gets 2 drops of marine c per day. is this enough? is tank dropping vits correct or should i soak food? and is there a recommended multi?

3. i am a furry person so fish are a little foreign still. my scooter, though fatter than the lfs, is still thin. if he is eating more, is there a rate of weight gain i should be hedging for so it happens slow or should i just feed him several times a day until he gets healthy fat then level off? just want to make sure not to cause other health problems by bringing him up too fast. (i was told feed him once a day. a couple weeks later i changed to twice. i moved up to 3 times last weekend).

you are truly wonderful and i think i am at the end of my newbie questions. soon i hope to be posting pics of the world's most beautiful and perfect, spoiled rotten scooter blenny.

[plantweanie]

PS: the feeding tube sounds a lot more convenient than placing a jar at the bottom of the tank, then diving in to get it after. i will be happy to do it if you can tell me how to convince 2 cleaner shrimp and 4 nassarius snails to BACK OFF just a wee bit. we haven't figured out how to outsmart them yet.... pushy little critters when there is something they want and they know the scooter gets the 'good stuff'.

[leebca]

It is good to hear about the progress. I appreciate the updates very much. Few do that. Most just drop in for answers or recommendations, then join the Internet byte ghost community.

1. A baby brine shrimp still lives off of its egg sac yolk for a couple of days after hatching. Since brine shrimp 'swallow everything' they are wonderful at getting gut loaded with almost whatever it is you want to get into the fish. However, they are still mostly water and of low nutrition. That is to say, the can't be gut loaded with enough of, nor the right kinds of nutrients. It takes about 12-18 hours for a container of brine shrimp to become gut loaded. Time is relative to how tightly they are packed, circulation, particle size of the food, etc., etc. More isn't always better. For instance circulation must be slow enough so they can 'eat' and fast enough to keep the food and the bs in contact (with the added parameter of food density).

2. Soaking foods is the optimal means of adding vitamin and fat supplements. Fish do absorb some nutrients from their environment, but the very large percentage comes from ingestion. Adding vitamins to water is more like feeding the bacteria than helping the fish. This however is better than nothing for fishes that aren't eating at all.

3. A fish stores its extra energy (fat) just below the dorsal fin. That is the area used to determine how much extra energy the fish has at its disposal. The size, shape or distention of the 'stomach' area is only indicative of whether or not it ate something. Amazing how many hobbyists 'think' (and I use that term loosely) that a large bellied fish is 'fat' or healthy. A fish 'stomach' area can be huge, but all it means is that the fish has eaten a lot. It doesn't even translate that the fish ate the right kinds of food. Often heard is that, 'My fish eats like a pig' but the point is, is it the right kinds of foods? Eating well does not = healthy.

Now take the other perspective. IF the dorsal area of the fish is 'fat' does that mean the fish is healthy? Are obese people considered healthy? It's wrong to support the concept of fat = healthy, as it is to place the concept of eating = healthy on marine fishes. A fish can't get healthy or fat without eating, of course, but there is much more to nutrition than those components.

What I hope the above makes clear (in my own convoluted way) is that you can make your fish fat, but it doesn't mean it is healthy. A fish will store excess energy when it is available and (stress-wise) allowed to do so. If you constantly pump fat into the fish (the right kinds of fats), the fish will get fat and yet still perhaps die of malnutrition.

The baby brine shrimp, gut loaded with fats and vitamins, the eggs too, are high in fat. Not particularly good for the long haul, as I mentioned in a previous post but didn't explain.

This fish doesn't do very well with strong competition. The snails should be okay. You should be able to control them. (A group of snails is called a herd which I always thought was humorous -- think of the herd stampeding!). They are easy to fool. First put in some meat and they will emerge and stampede to it. They then are pretty much out of the way. The shrimp are not going to be easy to distract. I would remove the shrimps. Stick to a snail cleanup crew if you want to keep pod eaters in a small aquarium.

You cannot raise the right kinds of pods in a refugium. It will be a nice supplement, but that source will constantly dissuade the fish from eating prepared foods. Pod populations wax and wane in population and types with changes in environment, water quality, predators (some pods eat other pods), available food/nutrients, etc. This is unlike in the ocean where pod populations are wide and varied. Thus a home grown pod source is usually not going to be positive for the long haul thriving of marine fishes. Hobbyists also fall into the trap of thinking 'My fish is fine eating pods in my tank.' Or, 'My tank is large enough with enough pods for my pod eater.' NOT!

Wonderful! Me? Don't remember ever being called that.






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[plantweanie]

ok - one REEEELLLYYY stupid question. I keep reading that we don't want a pinched stomach. At which view are we looking at for the pinching? i was looking at the side, but it almost reads like i should be looking down from the top... but your post also reads like i should be looking for a hump on near the dorsal fin- looking from the side??

or, am i better off just varying his diet, soaking his food in vits. and supps. and stop trying to read too much into it?

i will reduce the brine to treats once a week only. but golly he is happy when i release them! He is so dissapointed with the pods now.

incidentally, i am a freak when it comes to my critters. after i leave here, if i can determine the exact species of my little Sigmond, color me researching his pod preferences and culturing for him. i had pet planaria in my dorm at first go around in college, and pet daphnia in my second go around. in other words, i am easily amused. so how hard can other planktonish critters be, other than to find the eggs....

[leebca]

Ask whatever questions you want answered. You're (advantage) in a good spot to get info from someone with a heap of experience, education, and knowledge about the subject.

Most or our ornamental marine fishes are in the general group described as being laterally compressed. In simpler terms, they are flattened. To determine if a fish has stored energy, look at the fish straight on -- face-to-face.

From the eyes upward to near the base of the tail (all on the 'top side' of the fish) should be thick and uniform. The 'thickness' in this area shows stored energy or what we loosely refer to as 'fat.'

Below that eye-level area from the gills to the vent (anus) is the intestinal area, what we loosely refer to as 'stomach.' Food being processed distorts this area. If this area is pinched or thin, the fish isn't eating. When bulged and 'full' then the fish is eating. (As pointed out before, just because it is 'full' doesn't mean it is eating the right kinds of food).

In the case of many bottom dwelling, pod-eating fishes, the fish is not so much laterally compressed. More the shape of a tube. The same rule applies as noted above, BUT it is much harder to determine when the fish has stored energy or is just surviving. More or less, the 'tube' should expand and, if the fish is eating well and the right kinds of foods, the tube will be well rounded when looking head on, fact-to-face to the fish.

Hope the above helps.

he is happy when i release them! He is so dissapointed with the pods now.

Be wary of something called: Personification, or personification anthropomorphism. I should make you look that up, but. . .I have time.

It means: a figure of speech that gives non-humans and objects human traits and qualities. These attributes may include sensations, emotions, desires, physical gestures, expressions, and powers of speech, among others.

All that to help make clear: marine fish are not happy, sad, remorseful, nor do they blame or hold grudges. They live, like almost all animals on the planet, in the present. They respond to stimuli supplied by their 7 senses (compared to the human 5). It still isn't even clear that fish feel pain, but research is getting to the point of declaring they do.

I wouldn't make a great effort at raising its food. If you own an ocean or sea, I'd go for it. Anything short of that kind of ecosystem, and the best foods will be prepared foods.

The longevity and health of the fish will depend upon it being trained to eat prepared foods.

At age 11 I began raising mealworms for lizards. In the subsequent years that led to: fruit flies for hereditary studies; a few bog terrariums of insect-eating plants, aquariums, birds, snakes, hamsters, dogs, cats, media cultures for single celled organisms, and took over a room in our house and made it into a chemistry/microbiology lab. So, the point of this is, I know the 'freak' approach to critters.

[plantweanie]

wow, it has been a while since i turned up here with my desperate scooter questions! But alas, that seems so long ago.... quite a few developments, and a way lot less worry on my part.

to give closure to the saga: there are now 2 scooters living in a 29g. both will eat anything, including, and if i had a video camera to prove it, i would, silversides. so, the meal rotation is bloodworms, marine cuisine, formula 1 pellets, prawn eggs, frozen adult brine, frozen mysis and cyclopese, all but the silversides soaked in zoecon, and the food is rotated so that each meal is different from the last. no garlic required anymore. I have reduced from 4 times a day feeding to twice a day.

once a week they get live baby brine, agitated with 2 airstones with zoecon. this may be overkill since the brine are newly hatched, but i do it in case some are older than i think. i have 4 different species pod cultures running in 2 liter bottles, and from them i add a full turkey baster full of pods each week to the refugium.

i do not feed at all on saturdays.

the result:

1. the male is half again longer and wider than he was when i first started posting.

2. what i initially thought was normal behavior, was actually a lethargic male. he is now active all the time rather than sitting on the bottom. (he was never stationary, just not moving around as much as he is now.)

3. the added female is a month in the tank and has grown. she was fat coming in and has lost no weight.

4. i started a spawning log 18 days ago, once i learned what to look for, and have tracked 18 straight days of spawning. 6 days ago i started practicing collecting eggs. in a few months, i will try hatching them.

thank you so much for your help! I have 2 very happy, active, and eagerly eating scooters.

[WolfOwl]

Hey I'm new to having a scooter dragonet and I currently have one in my aquatic science class. Recently my group mate brought in a chocolate chip sea star without researching and I'm worried, is my scooter dragonet safe or will the sea star eat it?

[Reefing Madness]

Hey I'm new to having a scooter dragonet and I currently have one in my aquatic science class. Recently my group mate brought in a chocolate chip sea star without researching and I'm worried, is my scooter dragonet safe or will the sea star eat it?

He's safe. No worries.