Help!!!!

[asimp43]

My tank is definately trying my patience. My tanks been up and running for for years and I've lost a few fish here and ther but have four fish that I've had for over a year three of which have been in the tank for the full four years. All of my corals I have are at least one year old. Recently added metal halides(2X250w HQI 14K) and a Aquamedic Nitrate reductor. Shortly after the upgrade had a very bad algae bloom. Fought the algae for about six months and then took all live rock out and scrubbed with a brush to remove algae (worked for a while but algae is growing back....soooo back to the drawing board). I have done two water changes this week trying to help control the algae(one on monday and the other on thurs). In the last week I have lost four fish that seemed to be doing great then just one day...dead. All of my fish now have ick. I have tested everything twice, three times, too many times to count, even taken water to my LFS for them to test. We are all in dismay as to what the problem is. I have had a problem raising my calcium and KH but that is now under control.

Here is my set-up:
75g
10g wet/dry
Aquamedic Nitrate Reductor 1000
Sealife 75 skimmer

2 foxfaces
Naso
Blue tang
Six line wrasse
Flame hawk
Sailfin tang
True percula
sebae anemone

2 soft tree corals
couple of zoo colonies
1 Gorgonia
green mushroom colony
spotted mushroom colony

water parameters:
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0 or very close
KH - 12
calcium - 460
temp - 80 to 84
salinity - 1.024

Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?????? PLEASE

[Ninong]

Recently added metal halides(2X250w HQI 14K)...

You didn't say what your previous lighting was, but, assuming you acclimated to the new lighting by either reducing the daily photoperiod or raising the lighting higher, there should have been no ill effects. It takes corals about three weeks in their natural environment to adjust to changed lighting. Even if you did nothing at all and just simply turned on the new lights, the only things that should have been affected would have been photosynthetic animals -- corals, anemones, clams, etc. I don't think the new lighting caused your nuisance algae problems but it's possible.

...and a Aquamedic Nitrate reductor.

This piece of equipment is popular in Europe but not in widespread use in the U.S. Just to cover all the bases, I assume you followed the manufacturer's set-up and break-in instructions to the letter, right? Here are those instructions.

...took all live rock out and scrubbed with a brush to remove algae (worked for a while but algae is growing back....soooo back to the drawing board).

Controlling algae depends on controlling nitrate and phosphate. Have you tried running an iron oxide hydroxide sponge product? If you like Aqua-Medic stuff, they offer their own, Antiphos FE.

In the last week I have lost four fish that seemed to be doing great then just one day...dead.

Probably due to some water parameter problem but it's possible that a pathogen is the problem. I would suspect a chemical problem first.

All of my fish now have ick.

These are different, new fish, right? How long a period are we talking about between losing four fish and "all of my fish now have ick?" Several days, several weeks? What?

(P.S. - I just reread your post and figured out that you just lost four fish "in the past week." I missed that previously. So, are you saying that you lost four fish and you now still have all of the fish listed, including the two rabbitfishes and three tangs??? What were the fish that died?)

If you added new fish, then the ich came in as a hitchhiker. It can only survive if there is a host fish available. It can't survive longer than about four weeks in a system without a host fish. So the ich problem is a separate problem unrelated to your other problem(s).

I have tested everything twice, three times, too many times to count, even taken water to my LFS for them to test.

Maybe it's something that you aren't testing for? What's the chemical makeup of the media in the nitrate reductor?

2 foxfaces
Naso
Blue tang
Sailfin tang

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but all of those fish require a tank larger than 75 gallons. Having all five of those in a 75-gal tank is... Well, I think I've made my point.

Nitrate - 0
Phosphate - 0 or very close

What brand of tests are you using for nitrate and phosphate?

The ich problem is unrelated to your other problems. From your description, your other fish died without any signs of ich. Therefore, the ich came into your tank with the new fish. You didn't have it in your tank before.

If all four fish died suddenly and without prior signs of distress or disease, then I suspect a chemical problem. A sudden chemical problem. It may or may not be related to your problem with algae.

Sorry for your losses and I hope things improve for you soon.



P.S. -- I'm going to move this thread to Lee's forum for his opinion. The reason I commented on the five fish that I think are unsuitable for your 75-gal tank is because he's usually too polite to notice such things. ;)

[asimp43]

You didn't say what your previous lighting was

Previous light was 4X65w power compact...and the photo period was decreased from 8 hours to 3 hours and increased by 1 hour per week back up to 8. Corals seemed to have adjusted well to new light and seem much happier.

This piece of equipment is popular in Europe but not in widespread use in the U.S. Just to cover all the bases, I assume you followed the manufacturer's set-up and break-in instructions to the letter, right? Here are those instructions.

Nitrate reductor was started and run on LFS owners reef for 2 months to establish before adding to my tank. He lives by these things.

Have you tried running an iron oxide hydroxide sponge product?

Currently running Phos-ban and I love it!!!!!!! Went from a 0.25ppm reading with Phos-guard to no reading with the phos-ban but I'm sure that there is still some.

These are different, new fish, right? How long a period are we talking about between losing four fish and "all of my fish now have ick?" Several days, several weeks? What?

(P.S. - I just reread your post and figured out that you just lost four fish "in the past week." I missed that previously. So, are you saying that you lost four fish and you now still have all of the fish listed, including the two rabbitfishes and three tangs??? What were the fish that died?)

If you added new fish, then the ich came in as a hitchhiker. It can only survive if there is a host fish available. It can't survive longer than about four weeks in a system without a host fish. So the ich problem is a separate problem unrelated to your other problem(s).

Newest fish was introduced two months ago....the Naso. He's doing fine other than a few ick spots. Worst case is on my Blue tang that has been in tank for 4 years. Lost a powder brown, scopas, true percula, and a black cap basslet.

Maybe it's something that you aren't testing for? What's the chemical makeup of the media in the nitrate reductor?

Not sure what you are asking for but contains only bio balls about one third of which are deni-balls that serve as food for the bacteria.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but all of those fish require a tank larger than 75 gallons. Having all five of those in a 75-gal tank is... Well, I think I've made my point.

Three of the five have been in the tank since it's beginning the other two have been in there for about six months. LFS said the tank was ok but I also understand that he's in the business of making money as well.

What brand of tests are you using for nitrate and phosphate?

Using the API test but LFS store uses some other kind that are more expensive and his results were the same as mine.

[leebca]

I would add this to Ninong's excellent reply:

One more nutrient the algae enjoys is organics. I'll wager that the skimmer is undersized because your system is overstocked. Not only is the display the wrong size for those fishes, but it is overstocked. The skimmer would have to be very much sized to a high bioload.

The procedure I would have done is (before scrubbing the algae off) to put in a large herd (or up to 3 herds) of different herbivorous snails. Then scrub, then snails keep it in check. But the battle may continue since the overload.

You've mentioned loosing fish ". . .here and ther. . ." and I can say that is not normal. Their losses were your first warning signs.

Unfortunately, there can be enough phosphorous in the water to feed the algae and the test kit still shows 'none detected.' The kits usually don't detect the low limits of phosphorous that algae needs to live. Chemical absorbents don't take the phosphorous to zero, unfortunately. They reach their limit and hold the phosphorous in equilibrium at some low number they are capable of affecting.

Tank inhabitants need adjusting to reduce the bioload. I'd say a skimmer rated for a higher flow is in order. (These in addition to what has already been suggested).

[asimp43]

Thanks for the input and I was looking at a skimmer upgrade anyway so i will def do it now. And to follow your advice I will not be adding anymore livestock. I do however have one more question. we have considered upsizing our wet/dry from the 75 model to the 200 model (of course using our existing bio balls to maintain the biofilter that we already have) because we do want to get a larger tank eventually. Figured that would be a way to kind of spread out the cost and then move everything from the 75 to the larger tank considering a 150 or something around there. After having read what u two have said about the bio overload would that help some?

[asimp43]

I forgot to mention that I did add 50 astrea's and 5 turbo's two weeks prior to the scrubbing. They are all still in there eating away.

[Ninong]

I was wondering if the nitrate reductor might have been somehow causing your problems and when I went to Aqua-Medic's website the first time, I came across this statement:

The Deniballs filter media is a carbon "food" source for these bacteria and they should be replaced annually. For optimum control and a minimum of fine-tuning effort, we recommend using an Aqua Medic mV Computer to regulate the flow through-put based on the mV value within the reductor.

So what I was trying to find out was what was the "carbon 'food' source for these bacteria." Obviously if it's a food source for anything, then it's bioactive and I was just wondering exactly what it was and if perhaps something had gone wrong somehow. I also found it rather unnerving that the manufacturer thinks that this "nitrate reductor" needs to be monitored with an mV Computer to regulate the flow through-put based on the mV value within the reductor. Also, their break-in procedure seemed quite elaborate and I was wondering if perhaps not following it to the letter might have caused your problems. One other point, I was probably confusing their "nitrate reductor" with their "sulphur nitrate reductor," neither of which appliances are in common use in the U.S.

After reading your response above, I returned to Aqua-Medic's website and found the answer to my question there:

Deniballs are made from a special biologically based plastic material and are designed to provide a long-term carbon and food source for anaerobic bacteria within our Nitratereductors. In the absence of oxygen, these anaerobic bacteria metabolize the Deniball material to accelerate the reduction of nitrates into nitrogen gas. One box of Deniballs (0.2 gallons) for the Nitratereductor 400 and 3 boxes for the Nitratereductor 1000 is enough to be the sole source of supplemental food within the reductor for 12 months.

So the biochemical process in play here is a metabolic reduction by the bacteria using nitrate instead of oxygen and promoted by a "special biologically based plastic material" that acts as a carbon food source. Apparently they recommend filling the Nitratereductor 400 with a full box of Deniballs and then replacing them after 12 months. However, I don't think the nitrate reductor is the source of your problems at this point, especially if you are operating it exactly as recommended.

I was just curious about what the chemical media might be after reading their statement that the Deniballs filter media is a carbon food source for bacteria. Plain old bio-balls do not act as a carbon food source for bacteria.

[Ninong]

What's In a Name?

It doesn't really make any difference, but when you said you had a "blue tang," I assumed it was Acanthurus leucosternon and not Paracanthurus hepatus. I just checked the picture you posted to your gallery two days ago with all three of your tangs and it's P. hepatus.

I'm more used to people calling that one a regal tang or a hippo tang or a palette tang. Then there's a third "blue tang," Acanthurus coeruleus.

Common names are so confusing. A lot of times I have no idea what people are talking about because people from different parts of the country use different common names for the same fish. In this case, it really doesn't change much because no tang is appropriate for a 75-gal tank. However, P. hepatus is not nearly as difficult to keep as A. leucosternon and its tank-size requirements are not as large as A. leucosternon but still larger than 75 gallons.

[leebca]

To answer your question asimp43, you may increase the biological filter you have, however the point of keeping low nitrates and live rock is to encourage the live rock to process as much of the nitrates (denitrification) as possible. The larger the bio-ball system the greater the tendency for it to take over nitrification and restricting the effect the LR could have to reduce the quantity of nitrates. So, I would not make that change now and work on addressing the issues you currently have that are potentially more important.

Although this post was written for FO and FOWLR systems, you'll find it useful: What is Water Quality

I encourage you specifically read the part about balancing alkalinity, calcium and magnesium. The levels of calcium and alk are unnecessarily high and you need to know where your system is at relative to magnesium content.