Sick Angel

[tdillard]

I've had a Korean Angel for about one month and he had been doing great! He was eating well and appeared to be thriving. Approximately two weeks ago he appeared to be undergoing a color change from juvenile to adult; he's face appeared to be turning green but the black coloring on his sides seemed to be fading, almost translucent. I was a little concerned but still, he was eating well and moving throughout the tank actively. Yesterday, I noticed he was hiding out in the live rock and only came out when I fed him. Also, one of his eyes appeared to get cloudy. Today, he's barely moving at all but still breathing; both eyes are cloudy.

I don't know what happened; he this wasn't a gradual change in health (in my opinion). My salt levels are great (in fact they had been very high but are now in the normal range), and my KH is at 10; my nitrates are a little high but I wouldn't think enough to kill him (about 20). The only difference is that I added a blue starfish this past Tuesday and a coral banded shrimp this past Wednesday. My cleaner shrimp never approach the angel so I don't think the problem is parasitic, though I just don't know.

I've had a salt water tank for about one year, and I've struggled continuously to keep fish alive but I thought everything was going well recently. Any ideas, I'm very discouraged!

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

Sorry it was fish trouble that made you post. There is a lot of good information contained in the stickies here. I'll point some of them out for you.

There is still missing information. For instance, I don't know the following:

What is the size (dimensions and gallonage) of your aquarium? Does the gallonage include the volume from the sump and any refugium?
Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all along with their maintenance.
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put?
Other than live rock hitchhikers, list all marine life & sizes in the tank (fish, inverts, corals, clams, snails, crabs, shrimp, etc.).
What is the size of this fish (estimated in inches from base of tail to mouth).
Where did you acquire the fish? (online, LFS, friend, etc.). How long did they have it?
How did you acclimate the fish to your system? Please provide a short outline of the time it took and the procedure you used.
How were the newly added invertebrates acclimated?
Do you use any kind of quarantine procedure?
Is is possible to show us a photo of the fish as it is now? Probably not likely, but had to ask.
Foods you use and feeding schedules (how often is the fish fed).
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives? Please list all.
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
Water changes (how much and how often).
What is your source water? (Tap water, RO water, DI water, RO/DI, distilled, etc.)
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?
Last in this part of the list, I want to know what fishes you've tried and those you've lost. Other than these losses, has anything else been 'wrong' in the past year you know of?

I know this sounds harsh, but you have to look at your post from my perspective. On the one hand you write:

My salt levels are great

then proceed to mention how they were high, nitrates currently high, and don't provide any additional information. I want actual numbers for everything including the following:
temp
pH
sp. gr. (or salinity if you have that)
calcium
magnesium
alkalinity
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate

Not info from dip sticks, but actual numbers from test kits that use titration. I also want to know exactly what you meant that they were "very high." What was high? What were the numbers?

The fish has undergone some sort of stressor reaction. This can be from water quality, undernourished, pathogen, injury, etc. To narrow this list down and then to prioritize it into a list of 'most likely' to 'least likely' is a challenge. But with the above additional and accurate information, we can help.

In general, the thing to do now is get the fish out of the marine system and into a hospital tank. It may be too late, but it should be given a treatment with Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fishes. This is an antibiotic. If you are able to obtain this antibiotic, use it in double the package dose. The following information will help with the hospital setup since it is also much like a quarantine tank:
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...e-process.html

Since you won't have an active/running biological filter in the hospital tank you will need to take ammonia and nitrite measurement four or five times a day and when any is found, do a large (80%) water change. Thus, you may be performing three or more large water changes in a day.

The large Angels are very sensitive to water quality and I suspect this and nutrition put stressors on your fish. Some additional considerations about water quality can be found here: What is Water Quality.

I understand being discouraged. It's easy in this hobby to come to this. However, we can help, although helping requires a lot more information. So if you haven't given up yet, we can work on it.

[tdillard]

Leebca,

Thanks for responding to my problem; I apologize for the delay in responding back, since I sent the email, the angel died and I just wanted to organize my thoughts then get you the information you requested. I don't mind doing it because I understand your point; it is hard to provide good feedback without all of the information!

My set-up is as follows:

Tank-55 gallon long with 55 pounds of live rock

Filtration-Emperor 400, Emperor 280; Within those I use 2 of the blue filter cartridges, 1 of the gray filter containers with Black Diamond activated carbon, one of the gray filter containers with strips of poly-fiber, and in one of the chambers of the emperor 400 I keep a micro-bag with PhosBan. Filter cartridges and filter containers are changed out monthly; PhosBan is replaced every 90 days; the filters themselves are broken down and cleaned quarterly.

Power heads-I have 3, Maxi-Jet 1200 power heads, cleaned every three months or so.

Protein Skimmer-Remora Pro Hang-On Skimmer (rated for a 100 gallon tank.

Lighting-JBL PowerCompacts (The bulbs are about nine months old; maybe a year) this is a problem I know and I've ordered replacements.

I change five gallon of water a week, plus replace evaporated water as needed. All water used is RO water.

My current water conditions are as follows:

Water Temp-66 degrees, Specific Gravity-1.020, Nitrates-80ppm (red flag), Ammonia-0ppm, Phosphates 0ppm, KH-9, Nitrites-0ppm, Calcium 320ppm. I don't have a PH test kit.

My current inhabitants are as follows;

A Powder Brown Tang (3 inches), Percula Clown (1 1/2 inches), a cleaner shrimp, a coral banded shrimp, a blue starfish, 5 turbo snails, 10 hermit crabs.

I acquire my fish through a few different area fish stores and acclimate them through a drip for approximately two hours. I don't have the space to quarantine new fish or invertebrates so the only process I follow is the acclimation process.

I feed my fish a varied diet, including mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, angel formula, all of which are frozen food. I've been guilty of overfeeding in the past, though for the past thirty days or more I have tried feeding them no more than what they can eat in five minutes. That is five minutes over the course of the day, whether I feed them once a day or twice a day.





Alae:

I've struggled with algae continuously, and though I've had red slime algae in the past, primarily its green algae. I don't know if it's hair algae or not, it can be thick, if that helps. It's evident even now, though the turbo snails do a great job keeping it "mowed down" so to speak. One thing I do struggle with as well, which I believe could be contributing to the algae, is micro bubbles. I have micro bubbles coming from my protein skimmer. I have contacted AguaC (distributors of the Remora) who are sending me some screening to put down in the skimmer to catch the bubbles, I guess.

I have tried a variety of fish, usually onces that I'm told are relatively hardy (Powder Brown Tangs, Korean Angels, Flame Angels, a Blue Angel, a couple of Diademas, a Niger Trigger, and a Huma Huma Trigger).
As far as life span, I've have the Percula Clown from the very beginning, which doesn't surprise me because they can live under just about any conditions. Some fish I thought might have died because when I had the Huma Huma Trigger, he could be aggressive (though not always) towards the other fish. Most have lived 2-3 weeks it seems, but this last Korean Angel was approximately six weeks. A few days before he died (about the time I emailed you) his eyes did cloud up, however, he had been eating and swimming well. He died, as did a Diadema that I had had for two weeks, two days after I introduced the blue starfish and the coral banded shrimp into the tank. I don't know if either may have had some parasite or not. The strangest thing this time (with the Angel and the Diadema) is that the Diadema had all of its color; sometimes when fish stress their color fades, but not this time. It was like it was alive one day and dead the very next.
Typically, when the other fish have died they appear to be eating fine, then stress for 3-5 days (color fade), then are dead the next day.

I hope you can help; I am interested in this hobby but it is very frustrating; I see other tanks and they are awesome, I just don't know what to do next!

Thanks

[leebca]

There are some things I've noticed that I think are worth mentioning.

1. You didn't provide tank dimensions, however I assume what you have is the 55g 'show tank.' This was built for freshwater fish, such as Discus to show them off. It makes a sub-standard marine aquarium because it has a 'small footprint.' A good marine tank is short, or at least of such width and length that the gallonage is spread over a large foot print. It is the content of the 'floor space' which provides a good biological filter system.

2. For a FOWLR system, there is be 2xgallons of pounds of live rock. That is, a 75 gallon tank would have about 150 lbs of LR. This varies of course, based upon the density. Since the LR is responsible for a lot of the biological cycle, it is best to have it at the high end when crowding fish into a tank.

3. That size tank is not suitable for the following kinds of fishes:
Puffers, Tensioning or Adult Large Angels, all Tangs over 2" in length, Triggerfishes over 2" in length, and many of the marine fishes either requiring length of swimming space, volume of water, or space. You need a close reading of this post: Fish Stocking Limit - for FO and FOWLR You'll find that most LFS will be mis-informed on this topic, or usually don't care, so long as they keep selling fish.

4. There is maybe not enough circulation for this tank. It should be no less than 8 to 10x its total volume of water/hour. So for the 55 with about 50 gallons in it, you want to strive for about 500g/hr in circulation. Add up what you have. I say maybe because under-circulation is an invitation to red slime algae which you've said you've had in the past. You need to do the math.

5. There is no standards for skimmer ratings. One manufacturer may call their product good enough for a 100g tank and that same product another manufacturer would call good enough for a 50g tank. The point is you have to check that what you have is what you need. Since you are packing a high-end of wastes into the system, you need a high-end skimmer. The best is for you to find out how much water the skimmer handles per hour and then compare that with recommendations given in this post: What is Water Quality

6. The above post (in 5.) is important for you to read. Your alkalinity and calcium are not in balance and you didn't provide a magnesium number. Read the above post to understand what the balance is and why it's important to marine fishes.

7. Your nitrates are out of control and feeding the algae. You are deficient in LR so that is one problem. Another cause for the high nitrates is that you may be putting them into the tank (check source water, mixed salt water, foods, additives, etc. for containing ammonia, nitrites, and/or nitrates). Another cause for the nitrates is that the water changes are not high enough in percentage and not frequent enough. I saw no info regarding source water. However, nitrates are further promoted by 8.

8. Your mechanical filtration needs improvement AND changing the filters every other day. The caught solid wastes must not be 'stuck' in the filters for it to further decay.

9. Carbon filtration may be too light.

10. The marine system cannot be run nor operated without close attention to pH. This needs immediate action. I suggest a portable pH meter rather than test kits. Less frustrating and more accurate/reliable.

11. Remove hermit crabs. Mentioned before.

12. If you don't have time, space, or the $40 to setup a quarantine tank, you may wish to reconsider being in the hobby of having a FOWLR. It is an essential process and piece of equipment. Read some more: A Quarantine Process

13. Change feeding schedule (at least three times a day if you have Angels and/or herbivores (like Tangs)) to more frequently and for as much as they will eagerly eat in a reasonable amount of time. After a while they may seem less interested in the food and that is why you stop. Don't time them. Add vitamin and fat supplements to their feedings and better read labels of the foods you've chosen and compare the ingredients to what is recommended in the fist post below. Macro algae must be fed to the herbivore and omnivore fishes. And to no surprise -- more to read:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
and
How To Feed Macro Alage to Marine Fishes

14. I know the system is running. But I think you will benefit by reading how to start a FOWLR system. There are things for you to know that you've by-passed in your learning of marine systems. Read this: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

The above should make a good start in streamlining your system into the groove with those 'awesome' tanks.