Help needed. Currently Treating with Cupramine for Marine Ich.

[luckeeesmom]

I have read the postings about marine ich and also about treatment with cupramine but i have several questions. This morning I lost a fish and I am trying to figure out if I did something wrong or it just died of stress from the marine ich or movement to the quarantine tank.

I saw symptoms of marine ich in my display tank last week so, since I did not have a quarantine tank at the time, I bought a 10 gallon setup. I realize that it is not cycled and have been making frequent water changes to keep my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels in check. I have a clarkii clownfish, a green clown goby, and had a diamondback goby which I found dead this morning. I am using the red sea copper testing kit which was recommended by the LFS as being more accurate than the API test kit.

To the best of my knowledge I have followed the instructions on the cupramine and the test kit but just to be sure here is what I have done to treat the tank.

Day one: Set up the 10 gal quarantine tank with water from the display tank. Let it sit overnight to make sure the temp was holding steady. All water parameters were the same as my display tank.

Day two: Caught the fish and added them to the quarantine tank. I did not want to treat them immediately because I felt they would be stressed in the new environment. All water parameters tested fine.

Day three: Did a partial water change (approx 2.5 gallons) and added cupramine as shown on the bottle. 20 drops for a 10 gallon tank. Tested and got a 0.2 ppm result.

Day five: Did a partial water change (2.5 gal) to combat rising ammonia and nitrite levels. Tested for copper which was still holding strong at 0.2 ppm. Added 20 more drops to bring level up to the treatment dosage of 0.4 ppm.

Day six: Another partial water change. Since the tank has not cycled I am doing these regularly to make sure that the ammonia and nitrite levels stay in check. After the water change I checked the copper. It had fallen below the treatment level to 0.25 ppm. Based on the directions of the Cupramine to maintain a consistant concentration at the 0.4ppm level, I assume that I have to add more as needed if levels drop due to water changes. Because I did not have info about how much to add to get the treatment level I put in 4 drops and retested after 4 hours time. The water tested back at the 0.4ppm so I thought I was back to where I needed to be.

Day seven: This morning I woke up and checked the tank. My diamond goby was dead and my clarkii has one eye popped out. The green clown goby appears as normal. Fearing I had overdosed on the copper I did a water change before leaving for work which dropped the copper to 0.25ppm. All other parameters tested ok.

Should I add my carbon filter to remove the cupramine until the clownfish improves or should I keep treating for the marine ich? Any other input would be great as I am new to the saltwater hobby and I love my tank and fish. In hindsight having a quarantine tank at the start could have prevented a lot of these issues but hindsight is 20/20.

[leebca]

Sorry for the problems you're having. Not fun, I know. However, I'm glad you are caring enough to try and do the right thing.

The water changes, additions, and copper readings are not 'matching up.' That is, the readings you are getting do not correlate with the water changes and Cupramine additions.

The addition of drops is very -- imprecise. I can manipulate the bottle and vary the drop size to a factor of two. Thus, the test kit is very important. I can't tell what isn't right, but it's either:
Test kit (not using properly, out of date, not good, etc.)
Cupramine (out of date, not dispensed consistently, etc.)
Water measurements are not accurate-reliable, or
A combination of any of the above

First is the need to ask the question -- are you sure the fish have Marine Ich? Everything I write now is assuming they were infected with Marine Ich.

Since the copper concentration is suspect, there is a small chance that the parasite continued to live on in the low concentration copper -- enough to claim the life of a fish.

Since treatment didn't begin at once (your thinking is kind, but in the case of this parasite the sooner the treatment the better) this could be the cause or a cause of the loss of the fish.

You see, the Cupramine is added in two stages to help the fish acclimate to it. That is/was the time that was supposed to be given. Instead, there was a day of no treatment, and a day of 'half treatment.' The parasite likely marched on doing its thing to the fish during this delay.

I would continue with the treatment and better to buy another, different test kit. The two test kits that are recommended for this medication are: the Seachem copper test kit and the Salifert copper test kit. I like the Salifert since it is the easiest to read and use (IMO) and, so long as the kit hasn't expired, is usually very reliable.

Fishes affected by Marine Ich will often suffer from secondary diseases and problems. In this case, I suspect the fish are being exposed to too many of the wrong kind of bacteria and are becoming infected with bacteria, on top of the Marine Ich parasite.

I would find and start adding to the QT, while at the same time continue the Cupramine treatment, the antibiotic Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fishes. Follow the directions on that bottle.

Unfortunately, given enough opportunity, the fish being the target of three problems (water quality, Marine Ich, and bacteria), will not likely pull through. Much will depend upon their energy reserve and constitution.

I would recommend that during this time you provide small but frequent feedings and working hard at siphoning off uneaten foods, detritus, wastes, and continue with water changes as needed. There should be no indication of ammonia nor nitrite during this time, since that only adds to the stressors on the fish.

Good luck! Ask if you have any other questions or concerns.

[luckeeesmom]

Thanks Lee,
I'm fairly sure marine ich is what I had. I looked at several photos online and I first noticed it as the appearance of small salt-like particles on the green clown goby. Remarkably that fish is the only one who seems to be tolerating the cupramine treatment well. I fed them a few minutes ago and the goby was actively feeding while the clownfish keeps swimming around inside the pvc pipe that I placed in the tank. I just tested the water parameters and my results are as follow:

Ammonia between 0 - 0.25ppm
Nitrite between 0 - 0.25ppm
Copper between 0.25-0.30ppm
Nitrates between 0.25-0.5 ppm
PH is 8.2 (should I add marine buffer to get the ph up to the recommended 8.3?)

I am waiting for my saltwater to reach proper temp so I can do another water change to decrease my levels. Unfortunately the heater was plugged into a switched outlet so it was not ready to go. Is the 2.5 gal an appropriate water change percentage or should I do more? I should be able to do a water change before going into work tommorrow around 6 am temperature permitting.

Should I wait until tommorow when I can get my hands on a better test kit to add more cupramine to get back to the .40 ppm? I am concerned about overdosing in the meantime...

I will also pick up the antibiotic for the pop eye. Do you think that adding the antibiotic will harm the green clown goby that is exhibiting no adverse symptoms at this point?

Thanks again,

[luckeeesmom]

Lee,
One more question...

I found this on the net:

"Other Suggested Causes for Popeye
Nutritional deficiency, outside toxins or contaminates being introduced into the aquarium, a gas embolism caused by a sudden rise in tank temperature, excess copper, nitrate or ammonia, stress, and the gas bubble disease theory are other suggested causes as to why popeye might occur. Any of these factors may warrant closer evaluation if the condition does not seem to be associated with eye trauma or disease. Poor water quality or environmental conditions have been suggested as other possible precursors to eye infections. If these causes are suspected, a regimen of 5 to 10% daily water changes may be warranted until the eye condition improves. "

This is what led me to believe that I had overdosed on the copper. Since the popeye and the diamond goby death both occurred during the same night I am concerned that the level was too high at some point. Do you have any experience with this causing the popeye and if so would I still treat with the antibiotic?

Thanks so much!

[berkdog]

hi Leebca! and hi luckeeesmom. Any update on these fish? wish the best!

Leebca, I have a question about...

I would find and start adding to the QT, while at the same time continue the Cupramine treatment, the antibiotic Maracyn Two for Saltwater Fishes. Follow the directions on that bottle.

In luckeeesmom's case, is the reason why you recommend combining the 2 treatments due to the goby's eye condition?

In general, isn't it more dangerous to combined more than 1 treatment? How common would it be to run Cupramine and Maracyn-Two? What about Maracyn-One? I'm curious about combining medications since Cupramine is usually suggested to use alone.

Thanks!

[leebca]

I don't remember seeing anywhere that Cupramine is supposed to be given alone. Because of Cupramine's formulation there are a whole group of medications that can be used with it. One is Maracyn Two.

In general, combining of meds has to be done with the approval of the medication manufacturers. Only they know the formulations and contents and how they may or may not interact with others. In the case of Cupramine and this very useful antibiotic, the makers of both of these say they are compatible.

The reason for my recommendation of the antibiotic was the Popeye.

[berkdog]

On the Cupramine bottle I have it says "Do not use in conjunction with any other medication", and I've read on the Seachem website that combining medications can result in reducing the Cupramine Cu+2 to a very lethal Cu+ (so *at least* avoid Formalin, aldehyde based medications, dechlorinators/water conditioners in combination with Cupramine... possibly avoid many others).

But that's good to know that you can combine Cupramine with Maracyn-Two without any adverse side effects. How do you learn what can be combined and what can't? I guess this is why you suggest keeping Maracyn-Two in everyone's default fish medicine cabinet!

Thank you Leebca! I am happy to learn these things from you.

[leebca]

luckeeesmom,

I've not heard of any case where copper has been the cause of Popeye. Yet I am very familiar with numerous cases where the copper is overdosed. The fish dies or its lifespan is severely shortened, but I have never seen a case of Popeye from copper overdose.

The greatest probability without examination of the eye is a bacterial infection of the ocular nerve or in that vicinity. The next is a gas accumulation behind the eye. In either case, the antibiotic will either cure it or prevent it from becoming infected. Thus I would still recommend using the antibiotic.

What can happen though, is that an overdose of copper stresses the fish and would allow a bacterial infection to get a foothold, or spread more easily. Energy resources of the fish rush to deal with the copper poisoning and the defense is lowered toward other pathogens.

[luckeeesmom]

This is an old thread but I thought I would give you an update on what happened with my tank. It was a rough start to salt water fish keeping but I learned a lot. I lost the diamondback goby early in quarantine. I think that due to lack of substrate he was not able to sift and get the nutrients he needed. The clownfish, despite appearing the worst off, ended up fending off the popeye with the maracyn and is happily swimming about in my display tank. The green clown goby, Green Bean, died the day before I was scheduled to move him back to the display tank. I feel at that point it may have been old age because he had been feeding well until the day he died.

I gave up on the Copper treatment. It was just too confusing for me because of the different types of copper and needing the correct test kit for each type. I felt that I was never really sure how much was in the water and did not want to further endanger my fish. I bought a refractometer from Marine Depot and despite my apprehension, found it to be a much easier and safer way of treating ich.

Because my quarantine tank was not cycled I ended up battling high levels and at one point bought 3 heaters, 3 pumps and was moving the fish back and forth between two five gallon buckets while the quarantine tank was cycling. As soon as one bucket would start to cycle I had a fresh one ready to move the fish into. I know it was probably stressful for the fish but figured it to be better than exposing them to unlivable water conditions. Finally my quarantine tank cycled completely and I was able to return the fish to that. Now I know that in a pinch a clean 5 gallon bucket makes a great quarantine for small fish!

Happily I have been able to quarantine my fish after purchase and my display tank has remained ich free!

[berkdog]

How long would you wait in between changing between QT/buckets? Good use of resources there! I'm just curious how fast the bucket tank would start to cycle.

[leebca]

Because my quarantine tank was not cycled I ended up battling high levels and at one point bought 3 heaters, 3 pumps and was moving the fish back and forth between two five gallon buckets while the quarantine tank was cycling. As soon as one bucket would start to cycle I had a fresh one ready to move the fish into. I know it was probably stressful for the fish but figured it to be better than exposing them to unlivable water conditions.

Not really best for the fish, either. Just leave in the QT and keep changing water, not the bucket/tank. That's the 'usual' way of doing it, until the QT biological filter is running. But at least QT is there.

[berkdog]

Cool. Is that a way to help rid Ich? Moving fish from tank to tank, so Ich is left behind? Maybe that helped with the Ich, but was highly stressful on the fish it seems.

[luckeeesmom]

Unfortunately i could not keep up with the water changes in the QT even with doing more than one per day and it was wearing me out and seemed to be prolonging the cycling process. The buckets worked great and after aclimating the fish would last 2-3 days before they started to cycle. I just bought the inexpensive filters at WalMart and then two 50w heaters.

Interestingly enough, my Clarkii bonded with the PVC elbow in the QT and I could just put a hand over each end and move him that way without the net I moved the plastic plants as well so they at least had some stability in decor. Clownie still loves the PVC which ended up moving into my display tank! He sleeps in it or the torch at night.

[luckeeesmom]

I don't believe the fish relocation had anything to do with getting rid of ich. From what I have researched the only tried and true methods are copper or hyposalinity. I kept the QT and the two buckets at the same salinity level so I was able to treat for the ich while waiting for the QT to cycle. I was originally intimidated by the hyposalinity method but found it to be much easier than I expected, especially reading the refractometer. The fish treated seemed to thrive rather than appear stressed like when I used the copper. But, I seriously think that, due to the various forms of copper available and the different test kits, I may have not had the levels correct and maybe that is why I had bad results with that method.

[berkdog]

Thanks for sharing your experiences!