Need help! Fish deaths

[abdv]

Need help... In December '07 we had ice storm and lost power for 6 days - lost all my fish and coral. Since then, I can't seem to keep fish alive; don't know if it's just coincidence or something going on related to the die off. I started back up in February '08 (after tank re-cycled) with a watchman goby - that is the only fish that has survived. Since January '08 I've tried (one at a time) 2 mower blennies, 1 yellow tang, a cinnamon clown and lastly a six-line wrasse. My wrasse just died! The wrasse showed no outward signs of anything wrong - was missing yesterday then showed up at bottom of tank barely alive. I caught it to put in quarantine tank, but it died. Watchman is still going strong... Odd thing is that each fish has lived about the same amount of time - 2 months. First three I put in my quarantine tank first for 2-3 weeks. The last two (blenny and wrasse) I put directly in my 55-gallon just wondering if something in quarantine tank was making them sick. The last blenny (fish before the wrasse that just died) started eating less and got real skinnny. The yellow tang got stuck in an intake of one of the powerheads and seemed to have an injury from it, but I don't know if a healthy fish could get stuck like that. It died a few days later. The clown fish showed no outward signs of being sick - just found it dead one day.

Anyone have any suggestions at all on what to check besides pH, nitrite/nitrate, ammonia?? I've checked the wrasse out but I don't see any outward signs of disease.

I do 10% water change every 1 1/2 -2 weeks. I use Ocean mix. Use water from RO system. About once a week I add Marine Buffer.

The algae I'm struggling with include bubble (although emeralds are helping), a dark green, kind of slimy algae that is growing in dark areas around and on rocks, and a very aggressive algae that is more 'plant-like' with rhizome like roots. I've been moving rocks around, taking out to scrub off algae. I know stirring up the sand can be bad and I've tried to be careful. Also have been manually picking/pulling algae off rocks. Is it possible that I'm polluting the water? I'm about to give up and just have the goby in there... help please! thanks!


55-gallon reef
1 watchman goby
2 emerald crabs
2 peppermint shrimp
1 sand sifting starfish
mushrooms
hammer coral
pumping xenia
polyps
various snails
hermit crabs

Set-up:

~55 lbs. live rock
Red Sea Prizm protein skimmer with carbon (change carbon about every 3 weeks)
canister filter (no media except for Poly Filter and Phosguard just put in on Feb. 18)
3 powerheads - I recently added the third a few weeks ago
I started the tank in July of '06.

Parameters:
pH 8.1
SG 1.025
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
ammonia 0
phosphates .02

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

I will try and help you. You have provided much of the information I would want -- but not all. Be patient as I ask you questions and gather more information. Okay?

See the list below? I want answers to those questions.

Do all your fish and marine livestock come from the same source? Where?
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure for new marine life before they go into the display?
Foods you use and feeding schedules.
I want to know the procedure (in detail) you use to acclimate new fish and invertebrates into your quarantine tank (or display, if you don't use a QT).
Do you use any vitamins? Fat additives? Any elemental or other additives besides the buffer you mentioned? Please list all.
When you test the water for ammonia, nitrites, etc. I want to know the test kits or how you do these tests.
When you test the water parameters (pH, sp. gr., temp) I want to know how you do this -- what equipment or test kits do you use.
Chemistries – Do you test for alkalinity, calcium and magnesium? Please give actual current numbers for everything. I would like test kit test results, not dip stick results and actual numbers even if you think all is fine/okay.
After the die off, did you put in more live rock, substrate or any decorations? Are you sure you got all the dead things out?
What is your substrate (if any)? How deep is it?
Does your system show signs of Coralline algae growth? What is its color?
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.? I list all these because even though you mentioned some, I want to be sure there's nothing you missed.
Have you tested your RO water for purity? Test it for ammonia, nitrite AND nitrates. I want to know what the TDS of your source water is. You should be checking its purity regularly.
About your skimmer -- how many gallons/hour is it rated for? Is it working? That is, is it pulling 'scum' out? What does that smell like? How much scum is it collecting (the rate of collection by your best estimate)? How often do you clean it out?

Some observations I can make at this time:
There should be no need to add buffer if your Magnesium, Calcium, and Alkalinity are properly balanced. I really want to see those numbers -- accurately measured. Okay?

I think you need to improve your mechanical filtration. More than just a Poly filter. The Poly filter's purpose is more chemical than mechanical.

It's not clear if you quarantine your fish before you put them into the display. I want to know about this and how you perform a quarantine on your fish.

The challenges you have with regards to 'algae' indicates a decaying process or excess nitrogen wastes being produced. Take out a piece of your rock and smell it. It should smell 'ocean sweet.' Does it have any decay smell to it? Do the same with a scoop of your substrate. Smell the water.

----------

Keep in mind I'm not being critical here. I just want as much info as can be had before we move forward with figuring out what may be happening here. I don't say 'why' I'm asking the above, for the sake of being brief and not spending a lot of time explaining. The questions are not 'optional.' The answers are needed.

Like most hobbyists and readers of this post, there can be a few dozen things and we can speculate until next year. But with more and accurate info the better our evaluation can be. Just be honest as best you can. Try to get the information if you're missing it. Then post when you have the answers. I can't work off of 'some' of the information. The more info the better the evaluation and help we can provide. Okay?

[abdv]

Thank you Lee! I'm working on your list. I don't have a test kit for magnesium. I went to 3 stores in town today with no luck. I'll have to order on-line. Probably be about a week. I'll hold off on all the info. until I get the test kit unless you want the rest of the information.

[leebca]

I prefer to have it in all one lump. Thanks!

[Seige]

Thank you Lee! I'm working on your list. I don't have a test kit for magnesium. I went to 3 stores in town today with no luck. I'll have to order on-line. Probably be about a week. I'll hold off on all the info. until I get the test kit unless you want the rest of the information.

Sometimes you can take a sample of your water into an LFS and they will test it for you. Might save you some time if they can tell you your magnesium levels.

[abdv]

Lee, First of all thanks for your help!! I believe I've checked into everything you asked... I've answered in the order you asked:
1. My fish, inverts and corals have come from 3 sources: saltwaterfish.com (the clownfish and mushrooms), LFS (crabs, snails, mushroom, tang and hammer coral) and liveaquaria.com (all other fish, snails, crabs, shrimp, mushrooms and xenia).
2. I do have a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a hang-on filter. I only quarantine fish. The last 2 fish that I got (the wrasse and blenny) I put directly into my display since I was having such bad luck anyway. I wondered if something was up with the quarantine. Fish that I quarantined I kept in the quarantine for 2 weeks.
3. I feed frozen Hikari mysis shrimp 2-3 times a week. When I had the tang and blenny, I alternated with algae sheets.
4. Acclimation procedure for display and quarantine: I followed what was recommended by liveaquaria. Float bag in tank for 15 minutes to acclimate to temp. Add 1/2 cup of tank water every 4 minutes until bag is full. Dump out half the water and again add 1/2 cup every 4 minutes until full. Then capture/remove the livestock.
5. I do not use any vitamins, fat additives or any other elemental additives besides the buffer.
6. In the past I used the quick dip sticks 1-2 times per week for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH. I test alkalinity 1-2 times a month using Seachem. SG I used a swing arm hydrometer to test once a week. I have not tested for calcium (I used to test for calcium, but got out of practice) or magnesium in the past. I did get API tests for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH, and calcium. I got a Salifert Mg test. All the numbers I report are from these kits. I also pulled back out my refractometer and am using that for SG. I follow the instructions for these kits. Temperature I use a regular thermometer in tank. I look at the temp almost every day.
7. Current numbers :
SG 1.025, pH 8.2, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, phosphate 0-.01, Calcium 320, Mg 1110, alkalinity 3
8. After the die-off I didn't add anything decorative, live rock or substrate. The only time something has been added is a piece of rock or mount that some coral or mushrooms came on. I'm pretty sure I got all the dead stuff out. I scrubbed rocks, vacuummed substrate.
9. Substrate is aragonite about 1 1/2 inches deep.
10. I have coralline algae growth pink and red on rocks, glass, powerheads.
11. I had a problem with hair algae, but new bulbs took care of that. I do have red slime algae that recently showed up (last month or so). I don't really notice any off-colored patches on rock. The sand though looks dirty - brown (top layer). When you pick it up it kind of sticks together and is kind of slimy. There is another type of algae I don't know what it is that's growing on the rock. It's real bristly-like and grows in a little bunch. The emerald crabs are doing a good job on that stuff.
12. Once in awhile I tested RO for purity, especially with all the algae problems. Here are recent test results for it:
pH 6.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, phosphate 0-.01. I do not have a TDS meter.
13. My skimmer is rated for 100 gallons/hr. About 3-4 months back I had big problems with it - it would quit working; no water flow. I'd clean it all out, get it running and then it would stop. I finally figured out that the carbon was blocking water flow. It's working now, but I have to monkey with it to get the right output. It puts out about 1/4 cup every 2-3 days. Most the scum gets coated on the cup and I have to scrub it off. If I don't keep up with cleaning the cup, it doesn't work very well. That scum on cup is a very dark green/brown color and smelly. The waste water I empty is also greenish/brown. Sometimes it's smellier than other times. I noticed last few times it was more musty smelling. I clean out the entire skimmer every 2-3 months. The cup I try to empty and clean 2-3 times a week.
14. Mechanical filtration. Do you mean having media in my canister filter? My LFS recommended I take that out because every time I cleaned it I was upsetting the bacteria balance. What do you recommend?
15. I smelled water, substrate and rock. Water and rocks off the substrate smell ocean sweet. Substrate smelled okay except back in a corner where there is that dark green algae growth - that has a little decay smell to it. The side of a big rock that was on the substrate smelled strong of decay.

Thanks again for your help!!

[abdv]

Okay... I've been adding my pH buffer to my freshwater and water for water changes rather than directly into my display abd the pH in my tank has been holding steady at 8.2. My Calcium and Magnesium are low. Calcium is 300 and Magnesium is 1050. My alkalinity is 2.5 - is this okay or is this low? What do you recommend for Ca and Alkalinity? I've used just a liquid Ca supplement before, but not lately. I purchased C-Balance by Two Little Fishies, but haven't tried it. I've been a little nervous with everything else going on to try it.

[Carissa]

Not that I know anything (a total newbie to SW, but not FW) but I know in FW tanks any amount of slime algae usually means that there's too much decaying something or other in the tank leading to excessive organic waste, and often substrate is great at hiding yucky stuff like that. Since you seem to think your substrate may not be very clean, and you did have a massive die off at one point, that may be contributing to the algae + fish deaths. My .02 and I'm sure the expert will have more to add.

[leebca]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I had to study your very well written response and the information.

These are my observations and recommendations for the future in no particular order:
1. Don't bypass or shorten the proper quarantine process. 2 weeks in quarantine means very little. There are so many things that be passed by in such a short quarantine. This is the best procedure, I have found: A Fish Quarantine Process
2. The kinds and the quantity of foods is not right. Read this: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition What you feed in a week is what I feed my fish in just one morning.
3. Acclimation is okay. I prefer my own, though.
4. Foods need vitamin and fat supplements. That's covered in the reference link given in 2.
5. Rethink equipment and testing frequency. Test salinity daily. Stick to using the refractometer IF it is made for saltwater. Use only test kits that are easy to read, accurate, and not expired. I'd suggest getting a field pH meter that requires two-point calibration. Hanna makes these, for instance. Get and use a TDS meter for your source water. For Alkalinity, Magnesium, and Calcium, use test kits that titrate the results (e.g., Salifert). These three should be tested monthly and kept in balance. For balance and other water quality issues, please read this: What is Water Quality. Currently these 3 test result numbers are not in balance.
6. If I understand what you've written, the skimmer follows a carbon treatment. If this is true, I would change that design. Let carbon treat water after the skimmer treats it, not before. Also, don't tie them together. Separate pumps. The skimmer gets a lot of the organics out of the water. What the skimmer doesn't take out, you want the carbon to catch. Not the other way around.
7. Skimmer collection cub and column should be cleaned out daily.
8. Not sure what is meant by cleaning the 'entire' skimmer. The whole skimmer (collection cup, column where bubbles rise, overflow, lid, etc.) must be cleaned daily or at least every other day.
9. Mechanical filtration is the filtration that removes dirt from the water -- a simple filtering mechanism. The one your LFS is referring to and that you mentioned is part of your biological filter. A mechanical filter (filter sock on the return water, canister filter with floss and filter pads, etc.) should be set up and run all the time and cleaned out every other day. If kept clean and handled like this, this does not become part of the biological filter, which that other media is doing.

I would like to say that you are an attentive hobbyist. Good for you. There is, however something sneaking by you, as you rightly have observed.

I think we might both be noticing a trend above -- questionable water quality and fish nutrition. There is much more to water quality than just the measurements of chemistries we are able to make. That post on water quality given in 5. goes into all the possibles in this area. I think the system needs further help and support in this area and for you to be the detective and find 'hidden' places where water quality is going astray EVEN when the test kits say everything is okay. Lastly, the fish you want to keep need more food and better food/nutrition. Low food quantity and nu triton causes stress which allows water quality that other fish may be able to handle, to badly affect those that are underfed or not fed properly.

More questions:
a. What change in lighting did you do to handle the hair algae?
b. Better description of skimmer cleaning.
c. What is the media, filters, etc. in the filter you mentioned under your 14.?

[abdv]

Hello Lee. Thanks for responding. Thanks for the info. I've read the articles you suggested. Let me answer your questions first, then I have some for you..

1. Change in lighting - I put new bulbs in.
2. Skimmer - When I say clean skimmer I take the entire skimmer and soak it in a diluted vinegar and water solution. I do this every 2-3 months. I've only been cleaning the collection cup and lid on a regular basis. I haven't been cleaning the column. The carbon treatment follows the skimmer. My skimmer has a basket located at the outflow. When you say it should be a different pump, would it be better to put carbon in my canister?
3. My canister is an Eheim. I had in there 2 different filter pads (coarse & fine) and the filter media balls. Again, I took all that out per recommendation of my LFS. So you recommend putting that back in but taking it out and cleaning it every other day. Where in my system can I put a filter sock? The canister has a spray bar. Do they make any to fit this?

Now some questions for you...

1. Mag levels. My alkalinity is slowly rising (now 4), but Mag is staying put. I'm adding Seachem Reef Advantage Mag about 2 times per week. Calcium is also staying put. I've been dosing that about 2 times per week also (using Reef Calcium by SeaChem). Any suggestions?? Is it safe to dose more often? The directions say to add 2 times per week.

2. System upgrade. I'm looking into upgrading my equipment. I'm looking into going with a sump and new protein skimmer. What is your experience with refugiums? Are they beneficial or just more to manage? What about UV sterilizers? Anything in particular you'd recommend?

3. Fish nutrition/feeding. I was surprised at recommendations for feeding fish... It seems like advice I've gotten from LFS and some books I've read has been just feed a few times per week out of concern for adding too many nutrients to the tank. Do you have any recommendations for particular products that you like as far as vitamins and fatty acids? What do you think about garlic?

4. You didn't comment anymore on any of my issues being related to the total loss from that ice storm. Any comments on that? Also, are there any problems with moving rocks around, stirring things up, etc. I've read about not wanting to stir up the sand bed, but does that mean way deep, on the surface, etc. When I do a water change I do vaccuum the surface of sand a bit - is that okay??

Thanks again...

[leebca]

You're welcome.

Regarding the things you've done:
2. The cleaning of the skimmer is the cleaning out of the collection cup and bubble column regularly. Usually once every day or every other day is a good pattern.

My skimmer has a basket located at the outflow.

I don't quite picture this arrangement. Sorry. I'm more used to a skimmer either sitting inside a sump or outside the sump skimmer water in the sump. OR, a hang-on skimmer skimming water directly from the display tank. In each of these cases, the skimmer is on its own pump. I'm not sure how the carbon is placed at the end of the skimmer. The carbon can be just a bag in the sump, or placed in the canister. One is not particularly better than the other, though the canister arrangement makes it harder to get at to change. But if that isn't a concern, because you'll be opening the canister anyway to clean out the filters, then that probably doesn't matter.

3. The 'media balls' are acting as part of the biological filter. The coarse and fine filters are the mechanical filters. You might get some benefit by referring to this post now and then: Glossary of FOWLR Terms I recommend the use of the mechanical filters (not the additional biological filter media). Your LFS is correct -- about the media balls. Cleaning them often would upset the bacteria, but you need the bacteria -- if not on that media, then somewhere in the tank (like live rock, decorations, substrate, etc., etc.). But you don't 'clean' the media balls -- you clean only the coarse and fine filters or replace them. I am still unsure about your system design. No absolute need for a sock, so long as the filter in the canister is going a good enough job. Many don't. You want one (mechanical filtration device) that has the coarse filters, then a fine filter filtering about down to 100 micron size particles. The alternative to this would be a filter sock, but that would be on the pipe that returns water to the sump in the system. From what you've written, you don't have a sump so the canister is the way to go for mechanical filtration.

Your questions:
1. You follow the directions in the section of this post: What is Water Quality that has the table in it with calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium numbers. Make additions every two days and re-test all those things until they are in balance. Those additives are not cheap. You can buy other chemicals -- some from your grocery store, that you may find off the shelf. By adding those prepared chemicals, you just to get a 'feel' for how much you add to make a certain change in the test reading.

2. A refugium is another aquarium. It can be interesting. Put one in if that is what you want to have. It makes little difference to the system, overall, unless you go very large (large system and large refugium). Regarding UV: UV for U and Me (You need to start looking over the stickies in all these Forums to find subjects you want more info on). Just follow the guidelines here, as a minimum: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

3. Read the nutrition and feeding post. It's all in there.

4. Our marine fish hobby is very dependent upon electricity. When it goes out, you can expect losses. The people who can manage with a power outage for a few hours to a couple of days use either back-up generators, or use battery powered pumps, air pumps, lighting, etc. to keep things going while the power is off. Nothing else to say about this. It is just one of those things.

If you perform routine monthly maintenance of the substrate, moving things around should not be a problem. A substrate of less than 1.5 inches or so can be 'cleaned' by siphoning dirt out of it once every 6-8 weeks. The rocks and landscaping should also be siphoned (vacuumed) at the same rate. There will be some detritus tucked into places, and moving things around isn't bad so long as you gather that dirt up, or because of proper circulation, the dirt will find its way to your mechanical filter. A real deep sand bed (over 3" deep) is cleaned just on the top inch or so as mentioned above. In between these cleanings the live rock worms and lifeforms should keep the substrate stirred up.