Yellow Tangs keep dying

[goog]

I have a 180 gal fish only aquarium that has been setup for about 5 months. Our fish include 2 chromis, 1 banggai cardinal, 1 stars and stripes puffer, 1 queen angelfish (juvenile), 1 powder blue tang, and 1 coral beauty. All added slowly over 5 mos. We have tried to add a (single) yellow tang but they both have died within 7 days of addition. My system was setup and maintained by a very knowlegble local fish guy. I do the weekly maintenance and he visits every two weeks (cleaning/ 20% partial water changes (last saturday before the second tang was added)). Both yellow tangs were hardy when obtained (eating, plump, and active) 2 different LFS. My fish guy QT'd the second tang for 10 days and it was perfectly healthy when added. The there was some territory issues between the coral beauty and both yellow tangs. Neither Yellow seemed intimadated by the coral beauty though. Both tangs were perfectly normal eating/active the night before their death and the next morning each was found on the tank bottom gasping. One was placed in a hospital tank the second could not be retrieved. Both died within hours. No real signs of trauma (no frayed fins). Water parameters Sg 1.017, Ph 8.2, Akalinity 4.0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5 mg/l, amonnia 0., T 80.7F.

Is the elevated Nitrate level the result of the dead Tang? I plan on a 20% partial water change. My fish guy thinks the Coral Beauty is the source of the problem and the Tangs are dying from physical trauma. When a fish dies from a failed acclimation would it normally get sick, waste then die slowly versus as in this case perfectly normal then sudden death? We plan on removing the coral beauty before adding another yellow tang.

Any help would be appreciated. Thx.

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

Sorry it was this situation that prompted your first post here, but I hope we can maybe shed some light on your concerns. First, to answer your specific questions:

Is the elevated Nitrate level the result of the dead Tang?

No. First nitrates are not that much of a concern when it comes to most marine fishes. Second, there are some reef hobbyists that would kill to have that low of a number for nitrates. So don't be concerned about that.

When a fish dies from a failed acclimation would it normally get sick

When a fish succumbs to a poor initial acclimation to its new water the fish can react in a few minutes to a few months. When the acclimation is such that it would cause a death, the fish often just wastes away over a length (short to long) of time. It is a matter of just how traumatic the transition was for the fish and the ability of the fish to cope, that determines the time.

the Coral Beauty is the source of the problem

Probably not. I would go so far as to say, 'Very unlikely.' You can probably estimate this better than I since you are there as an observer. The Coral Beauty is not that of an assertive kind of fish when confronted with a Tang. If there was a problem, then you would have seen some very intense chasing (the CB chasing the Tang) in the tank even when you are there watching. Also, the tank being of a goodly size, the two fish could have found some 'ground' to have gotten out of each others' 'face.' There is always a chance of a 'rogue' fish or one with a personality that is at the extreme of the general type, but it should have been evident to you if that were the case (as noted above) like chasing, attacking, etc.

I would have put my money on the problem being with the Powder Blue IF it was a fish compatibility problem. But you said nothing of how the Yellows got along with the PB.

A couple of observations and some questions:

One thing I am uncertain about is the number for Alkalinity you gave me. I would need to see the results of these tests: Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. The reason for this is that all three are what controls the pH and in general can give some clue as to the stability of the water.

The 10-day quarantine means little to nothing. 10 days is not long enough to claim a fish is healthy. This is the correct procedure for quarantine and you should understand this when dealing with those who sell things: A Fish Quarantine Process. I would suggest that you take over the role of quarantine and put the information from this link into practice before you assume the new fishes were 'healthy.'

A 'plump' Yellow Tang is rare. It often takes a long time to get a wild caught marine fish into this condition -- especially a Tang. I am wondering if you really know what it is you are seeing or is this something you've been convinced by the seller? I am not trying to be critical of you here, just wanting to be sure what the facts are. Do you know how long each fish was or had been in the possession of the LFS you obtained them from? How long for each?

Who acclimated these fishes to your system? Did you actually watch it? What exactly was done?

Also some additional information is needed, since you are relying upon your LFS and 'knowledgeable local fish guy' so much -- Did you observe and watch the fish at the LFS before you acquired it? Did you see it being captured? and witness how it was handled from the LFS until it got into your tank? Tell me about that. Did you choose the fish yourself from others in the LFS tank?

I want to know the length-size of each fish on your fish list AND the size of each of those Yellow Tangs you tried. I also want to know what else is in your tank -- invertebrates (snails, crabs, worms, etc.) and if you're using live rock, how much of the live rock (weight) is in there.

I want to know more about your system: what kind and how deep is the substrate? How much circulation per hour? List all filters. Are you using a skimmer, UV, or any chemical (like carbon) filters?

Starting with the above information, we might get a bit closer to possible problems that have crept into the picture. However, you should know that even with this information, we may be unable to say for sure what happened. Without me having a necropsy on the dead fishes, there is a limited amount that can be 'guessed.' I'll help so long as I believe you are providing all the info I need and are being forthright.

[goog]

Lee,

Thanks for the quick response..

Yes the CB and the YTs battled over a cave in the one end of the tank. The CB was fine (noot aggressive until the YT was added). We set up another cave at the other end but that didn't help. No problems between the PB and YT. Before I embarked on this hobby I decided professional help would be of great value with setup and initial care. I interviewed a couple of fish guys. The guy I hired worked for aquarium service in SD. He just went out on his own and still works at a LFS. He recomennded Fenners book, "the concientous marine aquarist". (He knows Mr. Fenner from a local fish club). I have studied Mr. Fenners book. Anyhow, He would pick fish for me from a LA wholesaler and keep it in the store until he was confident the fish was healthy and eating. I picked the latest YT from his store. They had been in the store for about 3 weeks. I use to be a herp guy (had an iguanna for 14 years) and think I can spot a healthy animal (could be wrong). The YT I picked passed the feeding test, was active but not skiddish, didn't hide, and just look good (from the pictures in Fenners book and Pocket book Marine Fishes). No sign of ich, frayed fins, or glassy eyes. As far as the tank is concerned bio media w/protien skimmer. Don't know the flow rate, but two additional power heads in the tank. A couple of inches of live sand, no live rock. How do you convert Nitrates from mg/l to ppm. I thought 5 mg/l was high?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

[goog]

Lee,

Most of the fish are on the small side 3 1/2 inches. Fenner does say to stay away from YTs less than 3". I picked the fish, it was netted, bagged, transported home (:20), floated with bag top open, adding a aquarium water over a 20 min period and released. It was eating at the next feeding. The other YTs from that wholesale purchase are ok.

[leebca]

Thanks for the added info. mg/l is ppm. or, mg/l = ppm. I'm still unsure of the tank's other water conditions. However, the 20 min acclimation of a Tang is not recommended by most experienced hobbyists. I recommend, for instance, this procedure: It Was Acclimation, I know. . .

Still being unsure of your water quality and given the short acclimation, I would put acclimation as being the primary stressor on the new fish. The additional stress of the tank mate issues could be enough to overload the fish with stress.

I know Mr. Fenner. He has spoken at our Marine Club a few times. Perhaps that is the same place your expert has met him. I can assure you that Mr. F has not kept all those fishes identified in his book, in his own home aquariums. Like many authors, the book is contributed to by many people. I do not agree with a few parts of his book, but in general I believe it is a very good guidance work. I have listed others books for consideration, too: Marine Aquarium Books & Reading

As for determining a healthy fish, we have all made decisions that are less than perfect. Acquiring a new fish can be an emotional time (when rational choices are needed). This is guidance for those not familiar with choosing their fish: Is The Fish Healthy?

[goog]

Lee,

Thanks for the reply. I have started reading all of your posts/stickys last night. It's by far the most comprehensive and detailed source of information that I have found.

Well it's obvious that some mistakes have been made in the past. BTW, I have thick skin so don't feel as though you need to sugar-coat anything. I hired my fish guy not to take care of my aquarium but to teach me how to do it. I have great respect for experience and knowledge. My goal is healthy fish in a healthy aquarium. All advice is appreciated.

I guess going forward the first thing I need to address is water quality. I use a refractometer for sg. and Seachem multitest for pH, Alkalinity, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Amonia (total and free). Before I run out to purchase a Calcium and Magnesium test kit is there one you reccommend and are ther any other parameters that I should test for like O2 saturation?

We have been doing a 20% water change every 2 weeks using tap water and Corallife salt. I have home RO unit should I take a couple gallons a day and store in 5 gal buckets w/ lids and do 10% per week? Obviously mixing to correct salinity and correct temperature.

Thanks

[leebca]

Well said/written! An open-minded AND intelligent hobbyist is sometimes hard to find in one person.

I didn't know you were using tap water. That in our hobby is an absolute, "No." We usually use a combinationn of RO/DI water. You will need to either buy the water or install a treatment unit that will provide you with enough water you can store to perform your water changes and some extra for add back water (replacing evaporation) and emergencies.

Since you have shown interest in water quality, I suggest these posts and articles for reading. The first is technical, but it should be read or scanned through to get the message about how unreliable tap water, around the world, is when it comes to be source water for our hobby.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm
WATER - Source and NSW
The Mature Aquarium
What is Water Quality

The water change maintenance program you are using is very good. Some may say they are too much and too frequent, but I like them. You can prevent a world of problems by water changes. You mention matching parameters, so I'm assuming you've read this post: How to Make a Successful Water Change If not you will want to read that and some of the links therein not listed above (if there are any). A 20% water change every two weeks removes more wastes than a 10% water change every week.

Test kits are and should be accurate, before they have reach their expiration date, and easy to read--use. Many in the hobby think that Salifert test kits meet those requirements. Although I have used them, what is important is to use test kits that are titration kits rather than color-matching kits, whenever one is available for a specific test.

Regarding test equipment, on the medium to high end you want three pieces of equipment. You have one of them. They are: refractometer for salt water, portable (field-handheld) pH meter, and TDS meter.

Some very careful aquarists (hobbyists usually don't bother) will calibrate their refractometer to marine water. You see, they were built and calibrated and scaled to salt (sodium chloride) in water and not sea water.

The pH meter should be obtainable for under $75. and should be a two-point calibrated one. Hanna makes good, portable ones. The hobbyist needs two pH standards (usually 7.0 and 10.0) to standardize the meter.

The total dissolved solids (TDS) meter is to verify each batch of source water is 'good.' This is your routine assurance of 'quality' -- that is after setting up the treatment system, checking for ammonia, nitrites, and phosphates in the processed water.

The last (unmentioned) piece of equipment I assume you have and that is a thermometer. Those are the group of test equipment items.

These sort of details can be found in this post: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

It's always a good idea to get an idea of whom you're listening to when you need help with your system. I respect those that want to know where the information is coming from. You can check me out here: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

As you learn more and do (a lot) the reading, you'll find there are very few fast, short, or easy solutions to having a great marine system. Sort of like the time and patience it takes to set one up.

The difference of what you are doing and what successful hobbyists do is slight, but enough to make a difference to some fishes. Good luck!