Please help: severe case of pop eye.

[Carissa]

I am starting my first sw tank fowlr and got a clarkii clown as my first addition. The first morning after I got him he was eating well. By that evening he was sitting somewhat listlessly in the corner. I figured he was just getting used to the tank. There was also a very small ammonia spike (maybe 0.1) which I did a water change to get rid of. The next day he was acting no differently and would not eat. The following day both of his eyes were bulging from his head. I immediately removed him to a QT and started dosing with Triple Sulfa (double dose). I continued that for three days with no apparent change. Then (last night) I started dosing Jungle Fungus Eliminator double dose which actually has Furan type antibiotics in it (my options for meds are quite limited here). This morning he got his fourth dose of the triple sulfa. I took him out of his QT (bucket) into another tank where I could look at him and his poor eyes are red around the edges like the blood vessels are popping. It's awful. I'm afraid he will lose his eyes. However on the bright side, I put in a piece of frozen brine shrimp to try to get him to eat and he did in fact manage to eat some, but I don't think he can see well, I think that's his feeding issue and not that he's too sick to eat. He is able to swim fine although he's generally not really active. I'm also dosing Prime 2x/day to eliminate ammonia toxicity issues since I don't have a cycled QT for him, besides changing his water every 1 or 2 days. Is there anything else I can do for him besides the meds and clean water and trying to feed him? Has anyone tried eliminating the pressure on the eyes with a needle or something like that, under sedation? I hate to lose my first sw fish, or even worse, have him lose his eyes and then I'll have to put him down.

[leebca]

You seem to be treating for a variety of conditions, none of which are in fact the cause of Popeye. I don't understand who or where you are getting the information for taking the treatment regime you've done, but they are not very knowledgeable.

Let's start by understanding a few things: A tank with any amount, even a trace of ammonia or nitrite, is a tank that is not ready or mature enough for fish. It sounds like the process was rushed. It takes about 3-4 months for a new tank to be ready for fish even if you begin with live rock and live sand. You should back up and read some things on this subject and then try to recover by stopping and letting time catch up: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

Next, it's good you have a quarantine tank or place for your fish, but that isn't the process. The process is first to put fish through the quarantine to verify they are healthy. Next, read this post: A Quarantine Process (step-by-step).

Next is the diet. You need to study what this fish should be eating. I wouldn't be surprised if you were also given mis-information regarding this. Brine shrimp, even BS that have been nutritionally improved, are not a good food for this fish. More to read: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Now as to the causes of Popeye: the most common is an internal bacterial infection (of the ocular nerve or parts nearby). This means the fish was attacked by internal bacteria. How did this happen? It happens when a stressed fish (a new fish is stressed, as you rightly figured out) is exposed to additional stressors including, but not limited to:
not good water quality;
a lot of bacteria in the water; and/or
a poor diet.

From the above list and what I've written so far, I think you may be able to guess what is wrong here. Although the fish may be cured, what will you do about what is wrong?

The fish curing first requires the best water quality possible at ALL TIMES. You measure the QT water three or four times a day for ammonia and nitrite, using a test kit (not test strips). If any indication of one or the other is given by the test kit, perform a large water change. Since you'll probably have to do this, I give you more to read: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Then the fish needs to be in an antibiotic that goes through the fish's mucous membrane and through the skin of the fish to get at the infection inside the fish. You need an antibiotic such as Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes. The thing to do with this particular antibiotic is to DOUBLE the dose recommended on the medicine. If you can't get this, please don't ask me for any more help. If anything will work, this will and I don't know of any good substitutes.

Feed the proper food and include in the food immune boosters, vitamins, and fat supplements. The above link gives you some feeding information, this gives you the info on immune boosters: Fish Immune Boosters

Fishes with this condition have been known to recover, live with this condition a very long time, or die fairly quickly. The antibiotic helps prevent additional problems and may cure the cause, but mostly it doesn't cure the fish. Most fishes that have had bad cases of this (in both eyes) usually have a severely shortened lifespan even if cured.

An operation to relieve the pressure is possible. You'll need antiseptic (betadiene is best), anesthetic (MS-222), fine injection needle, and a place to perform the operation. Most hobbyists aren't going to do this and unless you are equipped (mentally, emotionally, and equipment) to do this, I would not consider it at this time.

Then while this is all going on, if this isn't enough, there is more for you to read: What is Water Quality

In summation -- I hope you like reading; I hope you can learn from reading; and I hope you will believe what I have referred you to read. Always be sure of the person who provides guidance. My credentials are here: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

Good luck!

[Carissa]

Hi,
Thanks for your quick response. To respond to your questions and observations:

I understand Pop eye is a symptom of what is (most likely) an internal bacterial infection. Triple Sulfa was what was recommended by this site:
Aquaworld Aquarium - Treating Marine Fish for Bacterial Diseases

Since that was one of the few antibiotics available to me I chose to try it and I have been doing the double dose as recommended.

The Jungle Fungus Eliminator has a deceptive name, it is actually a combination of two antibiotics, nitrofurazone and furazolidone, with potassium dichromate as an antifungal. I know that an antifungal is not what I need, but it happens to be in there. The reason I added this was because it was available to me, and it's a different class from the sulfa based antibiotics, and also a broad spectrum antibiotic. Since I don't know what type of bacteria I'm fighting, I decided to add this as well hoping that something will start working.

I'm assuming both of these meds are absorbed by the skin and/or gills, otherwise what's the point of adding them to the water and not the food? However I could be wrong on that, I really don't know. Perhaps they are only good for external things like infected wounds. This would mean that they are being marketed for things that they will not work for, but this would definitely not be the first or the last time this has happened in the fish industry as I'm sure you are well aware.

I will see if I can get the minocycline since you seem to think that's the best antibiotic for this condition, I know I can't get it under the brand name of Maracyn but perhaps I can under some other name.

All of that aside, I also understand that stress (ammonia, etc.) is what caused this problem. The tank has actually been set up for 8 full months with only snails in it (other than live rock and sand). I was surprised to see the ammonia rise at all (which I tested for with an API drop test kit), however I tested for it and dealt with it as quickly as I could. Unfortunately due to the fact that I live over 300 miles from the closest saltwater fish supplier, the fish was bagged for longer than what is ideal and I think this also contributed to the stress and this resulting condition. The ammonia problem has since resolved itself, in fact the second day after I got the fish it was back down to 0.

I did not quarantine this fish since I did not have any other fish in the display tank anyway. However I regret not having some sort of biological filtration ready in case of needing a QT tank, a mistake I will not be repeating.

The brine shrimp was just an attempt at getting the fish to eat something, anything. I know it is not a nutritious food by any means, I keep it as a treat for the fish in my other freshwater tanks. Now that I see that he is willing to eat, I can start thinking about what I can get for him that would be more nutritious. I do have Formula One flake food which I will start with for now.

If you have any other observations or suggestions feel free. I will see if I can get my hands on the minocycline, get some decent food if he continues to eat, and take it from there. Thanks again.

By the way, I'm very glad to find someone who has real knowledge on keeping marine fish and is willing to post on a forum for the assistance of others. There is so much misinformation out there about fishkeeping, it is utterly frustrating. My first serious learning curve was several years ago with planted fw tanks and once I found the right forum (which took months, almost ending with my giving up on the project entirely due to conflicting opinions and no real explanations), my knowledge increased by leaps and bounds due to their generosity with their knowledge on that forum. I've been trying to find a similar place since I've been researching reef tanks, and haven't been able to find it perhaps until now.

[Carissa]

One more question - what do you think of raw fresh squid as part of a fish's diet? That is one thing I have available to me in large quantities if I want it. Better than brine shrimp? ;)

[leebca]

I'm assuming both of these meds are absorbed by the skin and/or gills, otherwise what's the point of adding them to the water and not the food?

I see now that you're in Canada. Many drugs aren't available to you and so is the reverse, some fish meds are not available to us here in the USA.

Bacterial infections, to the lay person, can be divided into two main groups -- topical and systemic. The purpose of adding a topical antibiotic to the water is to treat bacterial infections on the surface of the fish. The purpose of adding systemic antibiotics to the water is to treat systemic or infections inside the fish. That is why the choice of antibiotic is important.

When antibiotics are added to food they must pass through the intestinal track. So the antibiotic or medicine in that case must be able to handle the change in pH and the digestive system of the organism. Thus a med for eating must be designed specifically for that. Can we get beyond me having to further explain my recommendation?

I'm mystified about why your tank couldn't handle the biological impact of just one fish. That requires additional information to sort out, since this isn't the way it 'should be.' Something (interesting) is a miss.

Any raw food from the sea is your best choice. However, no fish can live on just one type. The Anemonefish is an omnivore. It need marine algae also. Give that post a read. If you're interested in homemade foods, you might want to look at this thread: Melevsreef.com - Proper Feeding Methods and search other sites for recipes. The link I provided on fish nutrition is long, however you can pick and choose many foods. The widest the variety the better. Be sure to add those supplements. Squid is fine, just don't use the ink sac, that cartilage strip that runs down the length of the body and the beak. Tentacles, eyes, and body are fine.

Stick to whatever the fish will eat. You are right about that. At these times, feed whatever the fish will take in. Try to at least get brine shrimp that is gut loaded with any or all of the following: spirulina, vitamins, Omega-3 fats. Try soaking of the brine shrimp in vitamins and fats.

Now for the antibiotic dilemma. . .Nitrofurazone and furazolidone are those that goes through the skin. I have never known them to work. Another downside is that Nitrofurazone is a human carcinogen. The sulfa drugs are good for protozoan infections which are not very common in marine fishes. These are the primary drugs available to us here in the USA, plus the Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes.

Continue dosing with the Nitrofurazone and furazolidone. It is better than nothing and will still prevent additional bacterial infection.

A short post on this subject is also here:
Popeye -- NOT the Sailor

[Carissa]

Thanks again for the great response. My fish's condition has not changed. I tried feeding him this morning and he was not interested. One of his eyes is more swollen than the other, I'm not sure if maybe one is going down, or if it was always like this and I didn't realize it. At this point I'm not very hopeful that he will survive but I will keep doing what I'm doing, full water change 1x/daily, nitrofurazone/furazolidone and I will finish the sulfa treatment (only two more treatments to go, so might as well finish).

Would any change in salinity help with the swelling aspect of it (e.g. higher or lower salinity)? Is there anything else I can add that may reduce the swelling directly? The salinity is 1.014 right now and that's what I've been maintaining the QT at. He is able to swim normally and shows no other external signs of disease other than the eyes and not eating, which I think is at least partially because he can't see well. He tends to swim around in a circle in the bucket or swim just in one place, and runs directly into things if he faces them head on because he can't see.

I called the lfs and they apparently don't carry anything with minocycline in it. They have API products (what I'm using now is the API triple sulfa), if there is anything from them that may work it might be available to me. I just checked their website and the other antibiotics they have are Furan 2 (which I'm thinking is probably the same as what I already have), erythromycin, and tetracycline. I don't suppose any of those would be better than what I'm already using.

Now as far as the ammonia issue in the other tank. I did get a lawnmower blenny the same time as this other fish, so maybe that pushed the tank over the edge as far as bioload. I should have stuck with one fish only. It's a 33g tank with a 20g sump, a total of 40 actual gallons of water. The blenny is doing fine, eating and active, in the display tank, he's been fine since day 1. Ammonia did only get to maybe 0.1, not even up to the first 'notch' on the test chart, just enough green that I knew there was a little bit in the water so I did a water change. It's not like it spiked drastically or anything like that. My skimmer is really junky, although it is working now to pull stuff out of the water. The pump in my sump is working to turn over the water probably about 8x/hour, plus I have a Koralia powerhead in the tank so I don't think I'm low on circulation. So that's the story with the tank, if this fish survives to go back into the display tank (which I highly doubt right now) I will be waiting a good two months before even thinking of adding anything else to the tank, and then it will be one fish only.

Since the fish is still not eating, I'm going to try chopping up the squid to see if that gets him interested. Any stickies on force feeding.....?

[leebca]

Sorry for the situation. A healthy fish can live several weeks without eating, so this may be a drawn out process with a not-so-happy ending.

Furan 2 is a good medicine. The last I heard, each capsule/packet of Furan-2 contains 60mg nitrofurazone, 25mg furazolidone and 2mg methylene blue trihydrate. It may be a reasonable alternative to the one you're using. I would use it only with a slight preference.

The ammonia peak is a bit more clear now. There were two fish involved. First that 33 is about only good for two or three fishes anyway, much less two being put in at nearly the same time. Time is needed for the biological filter to adjust. But like this post indicates, there is much more going on and that needs to adjust, then just the biological filter:
What is Water Quality. Mystery solved.

Do they advertise the Tetracycline is for saltwater use? The reason I ask is that because this particular chemical does not work at the higher pHs of our marine aquarium. It would have to be specially formulated to handle the higher pH and still perform as expected.

The sp. gr. you now have the fish is okay. I wouldn't change it.

Regarding equipment: You can determine from the above link whether or not you have the proper skimmer. You want to also begin to monitor and make adjustments (slowly) to alkalinity, magnesium, and calcium concentrations (also according to that link above).

Force feeding is usually a 'dead-end' street. Marine ornamental fish don't start eating after being force fed according to my experience. I have heard where it has worked for one particular aquarist and fish, but I think that is a big exception. Larger marine life forms have been force fed into eating on their own with better successes.

You need to appreciate what the test kits are registering. What the test kit is able to detect is mostly based upon the quality of the chemicals used and the realistic limitations of the chemical reaction used by the kit. What I mean is that when a 'little' is detected, it doesn't mean a 'little' to every fish. Ammonia is a poison and when detected by a test kit, it means there is a poison in the tank and that is bad (at any detectable level) to the fish. Any detectable amount adds stress to the fish. The more detected, the more stress, no doubt, but any is stressful. And to an already stressed fish, it can mean death. The stressors of captive life just keep piling up until the fish reaches beyond their ability to manage the stress. A successful hobbyist figures out how to reduce or totally remove these stressors. Some hobbyists are lucky, but those who have had multiple and consecutive successes have addressed the stressors either consciously or sub-consciously.

There is nothing much else I can help you with on this. It is time and stamina (of the fish) that will tell. I believe you are doing all that you can. Still, if you have more questions or concerns, don't hesitate to ask.

[Carissa]

The tetracycline was not advertised for saltwater use. This store does not carry saltwater stock so all of their meds are intended for freshwater use.

I have some questions related to the above links that I will post elsewhere since they are not directly related to this situation.

[Seige]

Carissa,

I was about to suggest that your ammonia spike was due to your small tank. I recalled the size from your other message. You might want to consider getting a larger tank and keeping this one as a backup QT/Med tank or converting it to a sump. If you can't get larger tanks where you are maybe you can build one.

Not sure where you live in Canada but their are a few online suppliers on the east and west coast that you might be able to use like this one.
JL Aquatics - Maracyn 2

You can also make orders, including livestock, from Inland Aquatics in the US.
Inland Aquatics Homepage

I'm guessing those aren't an option because your likely far enough isolated that shipping costs would be huge. If I can help let me know. I live about 2 hours outside of Toronto so if it's sold in Canada I can probably arrange to get it for you.

One consideration you might make in the future is waiting for day and nighttime temperatures along the whole shipping route to get over 55F/13C for livestock shipments. I'm waiting on weather now so I can order a Detritivore kit.

I hope you decide to stick with this board. You seem knowledgeable. You'll find there are several extremely experienced members on this board like Lee that are more then willing to help. I've been in this hobbie for about 10 weeks and I'm here to stay. ;-)

[Carissa]

Hi!
I've ordered from JL Aquatics before. I'm planning on ordering a T5 setup for my planted fw tank from them, so at the same time I will get some Maracyn 2 irregardless of whether the fish is still alive or not, you never know when I might need it. At this point, even if I order it now, by the time it gets here (a week to 10 days) the fish will probably either be dead or getting better. Shipping livestock is basically out of the question, I am a minimum 2 day shipping from anywhere (rural Newfoundland). I've checked everywhere, the minimum costs of shipping alone is $65. Not worth it unless I was stocking a really huge tank.

On the fish again, today there is a change in his eyes. They are possibly more distended then they were, but instead of just being swollen now, there is an air bubble behind and to the side of either eye. Is this a good sign, or a bad one? He's still not eating but still swimming normally etc.

[leebca]

The clear area you see could be gas filled or clear liquid filled. This is the place where an operation is called for. It's just that I have not found more than one case where the operation saved the fish. Each operation has, however, relieved the pressure and what might be considered pain to the fish.

I'd like you to read this post (oh my goodness -- more to read!) and consider your full set of options: Euthanasia -- Putting a Marine Down

[Carissa]

I have to look around to see if I can find some clove oil, if not for right now, for future use. I haven't seen it anywhere around here.

Not much change in the bubbles. I wonder what they are and why they appeared suddenly. If the bubbles were to go away, his eyes may be almost normal. These bubbles did not appear until yesterday.

[Seige]

Hi Carissa. I'm still checking all my old notes and emails. Found a couple. I haven't tried either so I can't tell you how good their service is or if they are legit online suppliers. The first one has free shipping within atlantic canada for larger orders. I hope it helps. Maybe you can get the meds you need faster.

This one may be worth checking out.
Atlantic Reef Store - (Powered by CubeCart)

I also found this one. It's based in NY but they will ship to Canada. Maybe it will help. Aquarium Supplies and Pond Products of the Highest Quality

I'm still checking. I think their was one based in the US close to the border that would ship to Canada. Still searching... ;-)

[Seige]

wow the atlantic supplier has good prices on inverts too.

[Carissa]

Great! Thanks for the links. If I ever need more than $100 worth of livestock, that would be my cheapest bet if they in fact honor that for NL shipments. I will email and ask them. Shipping on a single fish is about $30. The lfs here just started carrying sw fish, but they don't have much up there right now that I would want. I think I'm going to have them order in a ocellaris clownfish to replace my clarkii (who is on his way out... ).

[Seige]

Great! Thanks for the links. If I ever need more than $100 worth of livestock, that would be my cheapest bet if they in fact honor that for NL shipments. I will email and ask them. Shipping on a single fish is about $30. The lfs here just started carrying sw fish, but they don't have much up there right now that I would want. I think I'm going to have them order in a ocellaris clownfish to replace my clarkii (who is on his way out... ).

Glad to have helped. Free shipping on $150 of dry goods might be helpful too if you plan ahead. Meds/Foods/Test kits/lights quickly add up. I didn't see any meds on the web site but I didn't look very thoroughly.

My neice who lives in Toronto go's to Dalhousie Uni out there so if you really need something you can't get there let me know. Might be able to work something out if it's something she can pack in her case and save you shipping.

[Carissa]

Unfortunately the free shipping doesn't apply to NL and they also cannot ship livestock to NL right now, but they are working on arranging it for the future.

[Seige]

Unfortunately the free shipping doesn't apply to NL and they also cannot ship livestock to NL right now, but they are working on arranging it for the future.

Sorry to hear that. Well at least it should be cheaper then shiping from BigAl's or JLAquatics.

[Carissa]

Yes, it's good to have a few options available.

Back on the fish again, he's amazingly still alive. Yesterday he seemed like he was on his way out, but today he's swimming around fairly actively again. Still not eating, though. When I put food in the water (which I do just prior to the water change), he gets excited and swims around and around, but doesn't try to eat anything. On one of his eyes, the air (?) bubble is gone and the eye is actually not as swollen as it was before, maybe a 50% improvement from when it was really bad, but there's white stuff visible inside of his eye around the edge where it meets the head. I don't know what that means, probably infection I'm guessing. His other eye is still pretty distended. He seems to be able to see but not well. I'm finished with the sulfa treatment so I'm just continuing to treat with the nitrafurazone/furazolidone, 100% water change daily, and wait and see what happens.

[Seige]

Not sure if it helps but I was at an LFS that had a fish with 1 pop eye. They'd treated with everything they'd heard would cure it but nothing worked. He keeps living though.

Sounds like your fish wants to eat, just can't find it because of the condition of it's eyes. If you have it in a smaller container while you do water changes then it might be worth trying to feed it then. It might improve it's chances of finding food. Otherwise maybe try something larger it can see easier like a seaweed clip. Don't know if clowns eat seaweed but it could be worth a shot if you want to keep it alive.

No experience with popeye.