I cannot keep fish alive!!!!

[csmith89]

I started this tank about 6 months ago.. I have a few soft corals, a coral banded shrimp, a nudabranch, cucumber, feather starfish, and about 25lbs of live rock in 20lbs of sand. It is 25 gallons and I recently got a protein skimmer and put a damsel in and 3 days later he was hiding in rocks breathing fast and wouldn't eat. He ate the first day..... I have been through 13 damsels, 5 chromis', bangai cardinal, bubbletip anemones didnt last but a couple weeks, but the corals are good and the shrimp is one of the first put in the tank and he is fine. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<Fish tank with no fish

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

That sized display tank is not particularly good for marine fish husbandry, but the Damsels you've chosen to put in there should thrive well enough.

You seem to have quite a number of corals. Are you sure there is enough room for them to grow?

I would want to see the following current water analysis:
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate
phosphate
calcium
alkalinity
magnesium

I would like to know the follow conditions:
temperature
sp. gr.
pH

The chemistries should be done by test kit and for the last three on the top list, by titration.

I want to know your source water, how often you change water. I also want to know more about your equipment and system including the following:


Do you use carbon, skimmer, mechanical or other chemical filtration? List all along with their maintenance.
Do you have live rock in the system? How many pounds or amount and where is it put?
Did all your fish and corals come from the same source? Where do the fish come from?
Do you use a quarantine tank and procedure?
Please list all additives and things you put into the tank.
Do you see any of the following in your system: hair algae; micro algae; cyanobacteria growths (red slime algae); dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) growths; brown algae; diatom growth; slimes; off-colored patches on rock or substrate that are not coralline; etc.?
List what you added or taken out of your aquarium system (living, decorations, and equipment) during the past 6 weeks.
Maintenance schedule. What have you done lately?

The more information and the greater the accuracy of that information, the more likely we can help you solve the mystery.

[csmith89]

The fish store is not open yet, when they open I will get the water tested.... as of equipment it is a retrofit kit light by sunpaq, the skimmer is by current, it has eclipse carbon filter, the live rock is placed in the middle so I have room to clean glass with the magnet and theres about 20-25lbs of live rock, but it looks like all the live stuff on the rock is dead because there is quite a bit of grey stuff on the rocks (could the grey be something else?) I used fish food that is probably no good anymore, could that be bad? I noticed the fish eating the little bugs and figured that was nutritional but I'm going to pick new food up when I go to fish store. I do not believe the fish store tests for everything you mentioned, so I'll have to get a kit. Which kits are the best to use? I change the water when the people at the fish store tell me to and thats probably 2-3 times a month and about 15-20% of water replaced... I replaced too much one time and fried my pulsing xena! I usually go to the same store for the corals, but I have tried fish from the 3 stores in my area. Theres plenty of room for everything to grow, it doesnt even look cluttered or anything... I did recently do an ich treatment, but I do not believe that is what my problem is because I never saw white spots and the fish die fast.... I will get tested and post some more..... Thank you!!

[leebca]

It was great that you provided all that information. It helps us understand a few things that may be going on.

I would make the following observations and recommendations. Most of what I have to say in detail can be found in other posts and I'll refer you to those posts (rather than try and remember to makes sure I write everything). Okay? I hope you'll take some time to read the ones I reference, at least.

1. You are not getting good advice. Sorry for that.
2. The tank is too small for a cucumber.
3. The tank is too small for the nudibranch which, by the way, can release toxins into the water that will kill fishes.
4. You need to keep testing for alkalinity, calcium and magnesium about every month. You want to keep these in balance. Read this post and note the chart for the proper balance of these three: What is Water Quality.
5. Fish are not getting enough food nor the right kinds of food. What you feed in one week is what I feed in the morning to my fishes (which get 5 meals a day). You have a lot of understanding to do regarding foods and feeding frequency. This long post should be used as your guideline: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
6. Eating the bugs (which are probably pods) is okay, but if the fish isn't eating the proper prepared foods, then it hasn't been trained to do so.
7. 2 weeks in quarantine is nothing; does nothing. Better learn this process too: A Fish Quarantine Process. In this reference you'll get info on the 'training' of fish to eat.
8. There is nothing wrong with a large water change. The fact that you had inhabitants that adversely reacted to a large water change indicates you are not making the water change properly. More to learn. Read this please: How to Make a Successful Water Change
9. Grey matter can be microbe colony or detritus. Got to go in either case.
10. Water change frequency and quantity is okay. But I want you to do a large water change (over 80% -- low tide to the inhabitants) after you learn the proper way to do this from the reference given in 8.
11. I want to know more about the Marine Ich treatment including:
a. How long ago?
b. What treatment did you use?
c. What fish were treated?
d. Where was treatment done (whole tank or in quarantine)?
e. Equipment you used to control the treatment (refractometer, copper test kit, etc.).
12. Good test kits are accurate, not expired, and easy for you to read. Salifert makes a very good line that fits these requirements. There are others that are good too. If your store doesn't have what you want or need, get these things from online vendors that sponsor Reefland.
13. Along these lines, rethink your choice of equipment. Get an inexpensive refractometer to do your specific gravity measurements. Look at that post on water quality (item 4.) to determine if you are in fact using the correctly sized skimmer. Don't believe how your source has rated the skimmer, read and know how to know if it is the right sized skimmer. Lastly look into a portable, field-type pH stick meter. One that requires two points to calibrate it. Hanna is a good brand.

In summary I'd say you don't have the right information on how to properly control the system you have. The above provides most of the things I see you may be lacking. You should also take some time and read this to get an idea of how a perfect setup is done (and in that, you'll see what invertebrates like cucumbers, starfish, etc. are or are not suitable choices): Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

As I started off, I'm glad you provided all that info. The above is not in anyway being critical. I hope my writing is coming across as informative not judgmental. I think once you get on the right track you'll have a great system you'll be proud to show others.

Waiting to see those test results.

[csmith89]

I shouldve posted something sooner... I think the people in the store just want me to keep buying stuff, they are no help at all.... Thank you for all the information and I will post back once I have everything needed!

[Seige]

the important thing is that you figure out what's wrong. if you're unsure about anything don't hesitate to ask. The way I figure it, no questions too dumb to ask, I may be too dumb to answer it though. ;-)

That's a lot of fish to go through. If you left anything out about your tank let us know. It all helps.

[bschuerman]

Keep an eye out on those fish stores. Even the seemingly most knowledgable ones can be misleading in the effort to keep you coming back to spend your hard earned money. Be careful with the number and type of fish / coral you add to your tank. 25 gallons can only support a few small fish.

[leebca]

It's easy to blame the LFSs. However there are far more of them that just don't know what to do rather than trying to purposely mislead the hobbyist. It is true they make a living out of sales and the only thing they have to sell is live stock, food, salt and meds, once the hobbyist has bought the equipment.

[csmith89]

i got a powerhead over the weekend and 2 more damsels and they seem to be doing fine.I think als i needed was a little more current in the tank mabey a little stagnet water in the rocks could have been killing my fish all along!Thanks for the help.

[Carissa]

Don't forego getting the test kit, especially for ammonia. In a new especially smaller tank it's easy to have an ammonia spike within a few days of putting the fish in that will kill the fish if you don't do a water change quickly enough, and the only way to know about it is to test. You will save the cost of the test kit many times over by keeping your fish alive.