2 dead, clown is hanging on

[morrisj2]

Ok, there is a lot of reading here but I wanted to give a history and as much detail as possible.I Hope I didn't forget something. Thanks in advance for your help and taking your time to read this.

I lost my Kole Tang, Juvenile emperor angel (I now know I never should of goten the angel but I went on adive of my LFS, looks like they just wanted to make a sale to a beginner). Still alive is my star fish, hermits, cleaner shrimp, diamond goby and the clown is hanging on.

After visiting 3 different LFS and reading alot on the internet I still can't pin point the problem.

First here is some background information.

90Gallon tank with sump, skimmer that I'm very sure is working and working good but not 100 percent because I'm still fairly new to the hobby

Current levels are ammonia 0.25 nitrate 10 nirite 0. specific gravity is at 1.022 temp 79. Levels have been like that since I have had the tank set up 3months ago. I got the tank second hand, it was running for 6 years. I took the live rock (120 pounds) and half of the water, clown fish came with the tank and judging by the water when I got the tank he is one tuff fish.

I use R/o water and recently found that I must of not tightened a filter canister enough and it allowed tap water though with out getting filetered. Since I tighted the filter canister (today) I not have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrates from my R/O water SO i'm hoping that this will help lower the levels. I also just added a fuge with chaeto algae in hopes it will help with nitrates.


After introducing the Kole Tang he seemed to be doing very well, he ate most all of the algae that I could see and I was tring to feed him but he would not accept it. He started to get what I thought with help from the LFS was hole in the head. So I started to feed more and I think too much BUT within 3 days this seamingly Hole in the head was cured, no more holes in the head. I stopped feeding as much but started feeding more on a regular basis however all my levels stayed the same 0.25 ammonia 10 nitrate 0 nitires and the skimmers seemed to be pulling all the leftover out.

Everything seemed fine for maybe one week except the Kole seemed to have what looked like clear spots along maybe his lateral line (the top of the fish from head to tail. Than I saw them in other places NOT white spots and nothing on the outside of the body so I think it was from not eating enough but really have no idea.

At some point Not sure if it was before or after the apparent hole in the head but the tang cut the clown fish, he had about a 1 inch long cut on the side, it was healing very nice except the last bit is still not healed and it has been like that for a least a week and since the cut it has been 3 weeks. He remainded in the tank the entire time.

5 days ago for the first time the kole tank finally ate some froozen shrimp and did so the next day as well. weird and maybe has some thing to do with it but when the kole started to eat the clown and angel both would not eat but did not seem sick at all

3 days ago I installed a new (new too me) skimmer in the sump. I had adjusted the bubbles so to what I thought was a good level and watched it for about 4 hours with no problem. Than I go to bed and wake up to find that the skiimer went into overdrive andfilled my collection container which is 4 litres. In turn my sump continually was blowing a massive about of bubbles into the display tank for who knows how long, any where from 7 to maybe 1 hour.

I think I must of really really stressed the fish out and maybe if they were a little sick or something was in the water or "waiting in a fish to come alive" (what ever the scientic term is I don't remember) than the bubbles blowing into the tank could of made it much worse because after that point the kole went downhill and one day later he was dead no real visible signs but he did seem to have small cuts and a few days before he seemd to be rubbing his side on the crushed coral but not often at all, from what I could see. He did seem to have clear spotting on the inside of his body.

Next day the Angel died. again no really big signs, he was swimmer very well and than just slowed down and died with in 24 hours. Again the spots that seem clear and on the inside of the fish, not fin rot andI could not notice any thing else except a few a week before I noticed tiny spots on the outside of the angel but they did not look white they seemd to be micro bubbles, I had a power head that was creating them so I thought that was the probem and replaced the power head.

Now the clown fish I would like to try to save if I could. He is swimming just fine, he won't eat shrimp anymore but will eat flakes, he will sometimes fo for them and not eat them or miss the completly, I believe this is because he can not see out one eye. One of his eyes seem to cloued over alomst like the look of a blind person, maybe a grey color. He seems to have MAYBE little little tiny cuts on his scales and the fins on his bottom seem red but its hrad to get a good look. Thats it not spots nothing else that I can see.


Like I said I have been researching this as best I can but I'm very confused now. I'm thinking that maybe it is bacterial infection.

Please give me your best opinion on what this maybe and please inform the best way to treat and prevent in the future.

I have a Uv sterilizer that came with the tank. I need a new Uv light but never bought it yets because many people say not to use it. Should I use this since I have it?

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

Sorry it was the troubles that have brought you to put your first post here. However, maybe we can help sort things out.

First, I'd like to make some observations and recommendations about the information provided:
1. Your LFS is out of line. The 90g is not suitable for any Tang, nor any of the large Angelfishes (unless in juvenile state and then, only for a couple of years at best).

2. The UV is not a problem solver. Not going to go into that here, since it was discussed here: UV for U and Me

3. You need a good diagnosis of what is happening and although you have provided a lot of information, more is needed (see below).

4. The poisons (ammonia and nitrites) in the tank is a big stressor on the fishes. Those fish don't care about nitrates.

5. The tank is not the right size for a starfish (except maybe for the carnivorous kind that you will feed routinely).

6. Hermit crabs cost the LFS pennies and sell for dollars. They are a big money maker. They are not needed and for the most part, undesirable.

7. The skimmer is working good but not 100%. I'm sorry. Either it is or isn't working well. It must be working properly and it must be properly sized.

8. Water quality is a main problem here. No sense in putting marine life into a system with less than perfect water quality. You are probably correct in assuming that stress has caused their deaths, however this is probably one of the main stressors at work.

9. Diseases may be a problem. Unclear without photos and more information. The fish does have symptoms of bacterial infection and poor water quality. Until the water quality is straigtened out, there isn't much help you can give the fish. After in perfect water, the fish should be in a quarantine tank and treated with an antibiotic. However, this is not a top diagnosis without more information and photos.

10. Feeding seems to be a problem. Before getting any more fish and in an attempt to keep what you have alive, read this and learn from it: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

11. Bad luck with the source water. Reinforces #8.

12. You need to slow down and obtain better advice from qualified people.

With regards on what to do now I would recommend
a. Find someone to take advice from. Verify they are qualified, competent, have nothing to sell you, nothing to gain from what you do, educated, decades of experience, and helpful. You have the right to ask for credentials, just like I have provided mine here: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

b. Stop adding anything to the system.

c. Remove all non-cleanup crew lifeforms and find them a new home.

d. Get the equipment straightened out and running properly. Make sure you have the proper equipment.

e. Learn more about the hobby from scratch, rather than trying to jump into it.

f. Do a LOT more reading starting with these posts:
Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium
What is Water Quality

g. Post photos of fish you think are still sick for diagnosis. Provide water quality measurements you take today with test kits (not any dip sticks or short cut methods). I want to know at least the following:
pH and how you measure this (test kit, meter, or ?)
temp
sp. gr. and how you measure this (refractometer, hydrometer, or ?)
alkalinity
calcium
magnesium
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate
phosphate

h. That water quality post has important info including how to properly size a skimmer, how to balance alkalinity with calcium and magnesium, and general things to be aware of when it comes to water quality. Use it and refer to it often.

i. The best thing to do to prevent this in the future is to be properly informed both by reading more and getting a proper 'mentor.' There are many helpful stickies here. You need to quarantine fish, acclimate them properly, train them to eat, feed properly, control water quality, provide a proper environment, and choose the marine life carefully to fit what you want and what can be properly cared for. This is a table of contents that list some of them: Table/Contents - Link List

Without photos the above is about all I can suggest at this time. Don't feel too bad. You aren't the first and won't be the last to get poor advice. It's not your fault. From this moment on, now that you are becoming knowledgeable and have the information at hand, what happens is your responsibility. In my opinion what is best for the fish you have is to give them to another with experience and proper systems for their survival. When everything is sorted out and you are better prepared to handle it, then you will have a wonderful, beautiful system with thriving fishes and marine life.

Good luck!

[morrisj2]

1. Yes they are out of line and obviously the sale is what matters to them. Its a chain store "big als" I go to three different one's and get different answers from each one. I have been and still am looking for a "senior" saltwater mentor. Maybe I will find the advice I look for here.

7. "The skimmer is working good but not 100%" i should of worded it different. the skimmers seems to be working but I'm not sure if it is work as it should. every once in a while it will skim and most f the time it won't, it will usually skimmer after feedings and maybe at night? I think it is working ok, just have nothin to compare to.

12. Your right I do need to slow down I just recently realized that and thanks for the reinforcement. For now i'll just enjoy the live rock and work on the water and look forward to many years of healthy fish and in time corals. I thought because the system was runnig for 6 years and I took half of the water and all live rock that it would still be in advanced stages of "life". Not the case though is it? I guess when I told my lfs that it gave them every reason to sell me what they wanted as I was convinced it was thriving with life. Ammonia being an issue as well, my bad there I should of looked at the R/o unit much earlier and tested it when I first set it up and never should of added fish with 0.25 level anyway.

Will for sure stop adding to the system.
Will remove all non cleaning life forms
I believe I have the right equipment but was unsure if it was functioning the correct way. The guy I bought the setup for used it as is and had no issues.

I started to learn about the hobby months before getting into it and have read countless info on the hobby. My problem is so much advice and so many different variations of it, who do I listen too. I think after I set the tank up I than went into fast forward mode and thought "I will learn as I go" and make mistakes like I always do. I always learn by just doing and making mistakes so I figued I'd go right for it a just have to try for myself...expensive move and loss of fish life which is upsetting, thats what it got me. I hope now I have found my place for advice. i think my main problem was not so much impluse buying but really it was listening to my LFS on somewhat of impulse when I should of went home first and read about it. I learned my lesson with the angel fish, as soon as I got home I read about him and found a 90g is to small that was enough for me taking advice from my LFS. I realize that if a fish is there today most likely it will be there tommorrow or can be found at another LFS, so first go home and research. Lesson learned the hard and stupid way.

Will will try to educated myself by using this forum. Really I'm very confused with some things and need to get straightened out.


Heres is some water details you asked for. I fear I have royally screwed up here. I was under the impression that for a fish with live rock setup the main concern was Nitrite,Nitrate and Ammnoia. I have never measured more than that. Guess that my bad once again.

all is measured with a test kit

I maybe be a bit color blind or something, maybe my wife is right when she says something is a different color than I see. I can't seem to pinpoint the nirates and PH.

when taking these readings is there a prefed method to view the test tube? Should I hold it up to direct light or should I hold it against the card with a white background?


PH I think its closest to 8.2 but also shows some light color like 8.4
sp. gr. is measured with a hydrometer 1.022
alkalinity ?
calcium ?
magnesium ?
ammonia 0.25
nitrite 0
nitrate, cant tell what color. either 10 or 5 LFS got 5
phosphate ?



Next step is to read much more about water quality using this website.


I'm very unsure of my feeding practices and will read more on this site. Thank you.

I acclimate with a slow drip. The tang 2 hours and the angel fish 3 hours.
Is that ok a slow drip?

I have approx 120 pounds of live rock, with caves, tunnels, crushed coral? what are your thoughts on crushed coral it is fairly big in size but the goby will shift though it for food. Does this make my nitrates higher?

Before I bought a single fish I had a plan of each fish I wanted and why but after visiting the LFs that plan went up in smoke. I'm starting a new plan and will stick to it but first I will post here for advice.

I guess I was always under the understanding that what happend is my responsibility and even if the LFS told me something I still took the advice and went with it. BUT now I think they are for the most part pretty low and basically they are a business that need to make sales to stay in bussiness and as far as the stock I put into my tank I do blame my LFS but now will accept it as my responsbility asI won't be asking them anymore.

water quality. I NEVER SHOULD OF ADDED ANY FISH WITH AMMONIA AT ANYTHING HIGHER THAN 0. Again though I have to say I think I told the LFS my levels everytime I bought a fish.

I have learned some lessons and one of them is that I need to learn more and not get so much scatered info and try to piece it together but rather a mentor is the way too go.

I have a sealife in sump skimmer and a hang on the back skimmer, I have no idea what size??? but could you tell me is this to much? should I use both does it hurt anything?

would you suggest doing weekly water changes right now or let the tank run its course?

If yes how much, currently I do 20g out of the 90g once a week.

Your adivce is appreciated very much and I can't thank you enough. I've got alot of reading to do on this site now I'll get there with patience and some help here, I'm confident of that.

[morrisj2]

these fish died shortly after I added the second skimmer. Could I be skimming too much?

[morrisj2]

Should I use carbon in my sump w/skimmers? I think from your other post you say this is ok but will it help me, do i need to add the carbon to my saltwater tanks limited budget would be another way of putting it. I use r/o water

Just read your water quality post and I'm going to get a new complete saltwater test kit right now! This hobby gets more interesting all the time.

Focus is now water quality!

[morrisj2]

ok the new test kit will have to wait a week or so MAYBE. Need to talk to the wife first about the current limited funds.


just a note I need it to test
alkalinity ?
calcium ?
magnesium ?
phosphate ?


all other levels have been measurenet with a liquid test kit.

[morrisj2]

Think I'm ready for corals now! LOL.


Yeah right maybe 2 years from now.

[morrisj2]

Wow, I can't seem to get off my computer there is so much information here.

Regarding your post about Skimmer.

You say to clean out the collection cup every day or every 2 days. Why is this? Is this just not discharge from the skimmer? Why does this need to be cleaned so often. I just replaced my smaller cup with a 4L jug to hold more fliud thinging I could clean it less.

How does the liquid in the discharge container interfere with the tanks water? Its in a different holder and does not come in contact with the tanks water.

[morrisj2]

A few days ago when talking with my LFS about my problems they suggested lowering the sp gr alot so any parasites would die off and also raising the temp to 83-84. Would you suggest this.

Thanks again lee

[morrisj2]

update on clown. I cannot take pic. He seems to be gettin worse as far as his scales go. its almost like he is peeling his skin and it looks whiteish color. He now looks "blind" in the other eye but seems to be getting better in the first eye that was grey coloured

[morrisj2]

I think I know what may have did my fish in. I few days before they died I cleaned the live rock with a small power head. I only did half of it but when I was complete I do recall thinking that there was a lot of debris floating around. This did go to my sump rather quickly as the water flow is pushed towards my overflow box. Maybe this is how or contributed (with previous mentioned stress factors) to there death.

[leebca]

Some answers. If I've missed something important for you, please just repeat it.

1. Follow test kit recommendations on how to compare colors. If the directions are unclear, contact them with your specific questions. I don't want to accidentally give you advice which doesn't apply to their particular system.

2. Need to verify that ammonia test result. Buy a new ammonia test kit and use a different manufacturer. If you are not using Salifert, then use a Salifert test kit to re-measure the ammonia content.

Check circulation within the tank. How much water is being circulated in the tank now? The answer should be in gallons/hour.

3. Do not use a drip acclimation process for marine fishes. Please read and follow this process: It Was Acclimation, I know. . .

4. I can't (am not able really) to qualify your skimmer. You need to read the water quality post section on how to properly size one. Determine how much water it processes. They almost all perform the same, it is just how much water they process that they differ. Choose one that is processing the right amount of water and is easy to keep clean.

5. Pick up the place right after adding cleanup crew and follow this procedure: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium Perform maintenance as you would as if fish are there. I would recommend 25% water change every 3 weeks at the start.

6. No such thing a skimming too much. If there isn't any proteins to remove, then they stop coming out. It's no reasonable that any skimmer or even two would be able to keep up with the removal of absolutely ALL proteins. Still follow recommendations in 4.

7. Yes. Test those other things. Use titration test kits. I recommend for you to use Salifert brand test kits until you become familiar with testing, then choose whatever one you want.

8. Although keeping the cup clean is important, the real important part to clean is the inside column that starts to turn brown with protein build up. When you can see it there, the efficiency of the skimmer is seriously reduced.

9. Lowering salinity and raising temperature kills about 0.01% of the known parasites. The temperature rise does nothing. They are mixing the info they have gathered from freshwater parasites. I think they have sufficiently displayed their ignorance. Please don't ask me to address what they tell you. I need to spend my time toward more positive help. Based on history, it seems I could spend hours trying to straightening out what they have to say and that doesn't seem to be an effective use of my time.

10. Debris floating around isn't a reason for fish death.

11. The current symptoms imply the fish may have a case of Brooklynellosis. The treatment is a series of either formalin dips or freshwater dips. These are covered here: Formalin Treatment - Marine Fishes
and
Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes

[1geo]

To me it sounds as if your fish are dying due to a parasite. Either one of the various forms of Ich or as leebca suggested Brooklynella. Give your clown a freshwater dip and see if that improves its condition; if it does then it has parasites. If one of your fish has either parasite then ALL of your fish have the parasite whether they exhibit symptoms or not. In addition, the TANK also is infected. To rid the tank of these parasites it would have to remain fallow, fish-less, for 8 weeks and that is not a misprint, a FULL 8 weeks. The reason is, Ich in its various forms which I would include Marine Velvet, has a life cycle which includes eggs. The eggs can lay dormant in the substrate for up to 8 weeks. When they hatch they MUST find a host fish or they will die. Brook reproduces by cell division. The new cell becomes a "swimmer" looking for a host; if it does not find one it will die. The "swimmers" can persist up to 4 weeks. Since the symptoms of either parasite are similar, it is best to treat your clown for BOTH parasites. Ich is treated with copper, ionic copper or Cupramine. Brook is treated with Formalin, specifically Formalin baths. These treatments can go on simultaneously. You give it a Formalin bath then you put it in a copper tank. The Formalin baths are give every other day for 10 days. The fish stays in the copper tank for 4 weeks but you still have another 4 weeks before your main tank is free of parasites so do NOT put your clown back in the main tank. The procedures for freshwater dips, Formalin baths and setting up a copper tank can be found on numerous forums and other internet sites, do a search to come up with all of them.