Rising Nitrates

[stkmach]

55g and 10g sump
salinity: 1.025
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrites: 0 ppm
nitrates: 20 - 40***
ph: 8.2 - 8.4
Calcium lastime i checked was: 400
Temp 79 - 80


Well my tank has been set up for 5 months after cycling and have never had my nitrates over 20ppm, until recently. They have gone as high as 40- 45ppm.

I feel i have a good cleaning routine, i do a 10g change weekly with DI water, and partially siphon the sand, but not every week. Test the water weekly before the water change. And have been feeding the tank about 3 mysis shrimp per day(the skunk cleaner always grabs them)

I have a 55g reef sent up, currently no fish in the tank for 3.5 weeks as i am treating for Ick. Looking at my log that is when the nitrates seemed to start climbing?

1.5" sand, CA skimmer(probably need a better one though, rated for 125g), 10g sump, 10 mangroves, 1" sand in sump, chaeto, and 65# LR. Currently there are 3 shrimp, crabs and snails, and 2 anemones(I know i should have waited a year) in the tank.

Fish that were taking out were Emperor Juv, 2 occ. clowns, blue tang, and royal dottyback. Getting a bigger tank (200g) when i move but would like to figure this out before hand.



My questions are what would cause the nitrates to go up suddenly(the fish out)?

Was thinking of making a Coil Denitrator, remote DSB or other things?

Lately i have been adding Amquel to take the nitrates down some, is this ok?

Thanks for taking the time to read this any help is appreciated

Anthony

[Parrothead]

Please clarify, you are treating the fish for ich, or the tank? and if you are treating the main tank what are you using, and just curious what size tank are you holding your 5 fish in.

More detail would be nice

Tanks,
Robert

[stkmach]

There are no fish in the main tank, as i am treating it for velvet/ick mayb both. Not using anything in the main and wondering why the nitrates are so high. I have found a couple of dead snails but i take them out(even though they smell like diarrhea mixed with S#*T)

The emperor is in a 10g and the other 3 are in a 20g. All seem to be doing well, although the emp. has started to get some pinkish what i believe to be fungus around his face. I still have 2.5 weeks before i can let anything back in the main tank so i will make sure all is well before i let anything back.

Anyone seen pinkinsh fungus? Or pinkish patches, his breathing is fine.

[Ninong]

I think I will move your thread to a better forum (Marine Fish: Care, Health & Disease Treatment) where you can get advice on your particular situation.

[leebca]

If you still have a concern about the 'pinkish' stuff on the fish, please take a photo and start a new thread regarding the fish. I would like to keep this thread on track for your original nitrate concern.

To address your questions:
Hobbyists think that only fish create ammonia wastes (which go through the nitrogen cycle to nitrates). But those snails, shrimp, crabs, and many of the mobile invertebrates also do the same. Organics in the water provide a lot of food for bacteria. Bacteria also are part of the waste producers. When something dies and begins to decay or there is excess organics in the water, those bacteria generate an amazing quantity of waste. Bacteria are small, but when you imagine millions of them. . .

To track down the source of your nitrates you need to be the detective. Search each of these things to find possible sources:
Source water -- have you tested your source water for nitrates?
Salt mix -- after mixing up a fresh batch of saltwater, have you measured its nitrates?
Organics in the water -- is the skimmer still putting out skimmate? Where are organics being created in the system.
Foods used -- are they rinsed off? does ingredient list show nitrates?
Amquel -- I'm not one to add chemicals to the water. If the system isn't self-sufficient then something else is wrong.
Other -- Any other additions or additives put into the system?
Mangroves -- Not very familiar with their husbandry but thought they were very slow on the nitrate uptake.
What are all the substrates you're using -- some do contain and release nitrates.
System Environment -- ammonia can get into the tank system if ammonia cleaners are used nearby. Make sure what kind of cleaners and chemicals are being used in the area or home and eliminate the use of those that contain ammonia. If windows are open to circulate fresh air, consider what is also coming in from the outside.


Next consider how the test for nitrates is being performed? Using a test kit or stick? Are they outdated, became wet, or otherwise maybe not 'fresh.'

Next, I need more test information to get a complete picture of the chemistries of the system. Besides the Calcium, I'd like to know the Alkalinity and Magnesium.

There are filters, and the DSB you have mentioned which all contribute to reducing nitrates. Those are options if you still can't find a source to eliminate. As for the general system, when fish are back, the nitrates will go up again. For fish this isn't a problem, but if you really want to keep a reef tank with nitrate-sensitive marine lifeforms, the fish should go.

Hope the above helps.

[stkmach]

Source water -- have you tested your source water for nitrates?
Salt mix -- after mixing up a fresh batch of saltwater, have you measured its nitrates?
Organics in the water -- is the skimmer still putting out skimmate? Where are organics being created in the system.
Foods used -- are they rinsed off? does ingredient list show nitrates?
Amquel -- I'm not one to add chemicals to the water. If the system isn't self-sufficient then something else is wrong.
Other -- Any other additions or additives put into the system?
Mangroves -- Not very familiar with their husbandry but thought they were very slow on the nitrate uptake.
What are all the substrates you're using -- some do contain and release nitrates.
System Environment -- ammonia can get into the tank system if ammonia cleaners are used nearby. Make sure what kind of cleaners and chemicals are being used in the area or home and eliminate the use of those that contain ammonia. If windows are open to circulate fresh air, consider what is also coming in from the outside.


Next consider how the test for nitrates is being performed? Using a test kit or stick? Are they outdated, became wet, or otherwise maybe not 'fresh.'

Next, I need more test information to get a complete picture of the chemistries of the system. Besides the Calcium, I'd like to know the Alkalinity and Magnesium.

Source water tested for 0ppm

Haven't measure fresh salt mix for nitrates(instant ocean salt)

Skimmer is pulling skim although i think i might go with a better one.

Foods are defrosted in container and pieces are pulled off to feed the fish/inverts. Haven't checked the lists(formula 2, Angel formula, mysis shrimp, homemade clam, shrimp and scallop, plus flake and algae sheets.)

I dont like adding stuff also but i got scared that the tank would crash because of the nitrates, i also dose purple up every other week, iodine and calcium not very often.

Mangroves i think were slow but i have 10 and chaeto in my sump.

Substrate is 1.5 - 2" fine agronite.

I know we have a air freshener in the same room which i will remove.

Testing is done with a kit(Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Salt kit)

I dont test alk or magnesium but i will do so and get back to u.

Thanks for the info...

If i put a 4" bed of sand in my sump will i notice any difference? or will it be too little to notice(10g sump 250- 300gphish flow)

That is why i was really worried because when the fish go back i figured it would go up. Which is better Sulfur or coil denitrator or about the same?

Thanks you are very helpful!!!

[stkmach]

I think I will move your thread to a better forum (Marine Fish: Care, Health & Disease Treatment) where you can get advice on your particular situation.

Thanks

[leebca]

You might want to check what Purple Up contains. Wouldn't be surprised if it contains some carbonates and maybe some nitrates to 'feed' the Coralline algae. If it doesn't list what's in it, stop using it and see if the nitrates don't go down. This kind of product isn't really necessary so long as you control alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium levels which are needed to help it grow.

If the 55g aquarium is the tall one, the one they call display then the 'foot print' isn't very good for a marine aquarium. A large length and width with a shallow depth is optimum for marine life forms. This design creates more biological filtration, however I think you have enough of that. Just thought I'd mention this.

For the 55 and if you still plan to heavily stock it, then a 4-5" DSB would help. Its length and width should be about 150 square inches. Don't know if that works in your sump or not.

Live rock helps control nitrates. You have a below recommended quantity for having a lot of fish. Usually, for fishes, I recommend about 2x the system gallonage. So if the DT, sump, refugium, etc. water adds up to 70 gallons, then you should have about 140 pounds of live rock (doesn't have to be in just the DT, but that would be its best place to reside).

Skimmer still pulling skimmate indicates organics in the water. Do you have activated carbon or other chemical filter on the system? This is important to have. It works together with the skimmer.

[Ninong]

You might want to check what Purple Up contains.

The principle ingredient is powdered aragonite sand in suspension. It is totally unnecessary. It's manufactured by a sand company, Carib-Sea.

The manufacturer makes the claim that it will provide a settlement surface for coralline algae. Well, that's what live rock does.

[stkmach]

Ok so i will stop using the purple up, add more live rock and add some more sand.

I have ordered the alk and magnesium test kits because i cant seem to find them around here.

[stkmach]

So i went to the store to get test strips while i wait for my vials and the
ALK was 300+
The hardness was 300+ as well(not sure if this is accurate as it said N/a for salt )

Should i be alarmed by these the bottle said 300 was good for salt?

[leebca]

Test strips are not reliable. If that is what you're using for other tests, then the time has come to use what the hobby uses for reliability. You need actual test kits that titrate Alk, Ca, and Mg. You need to use test kits with color comparatives for nitrate and other measurements. Test strips are, as I began with, just not that reliable.

I can't do anything with those numbers at this time. Still waiting for test kit results.

[Ninong]

So i went to the store to get test strips while i wait for my vials and the
ALK was 300+

Should i be alarmed by these the bottle said 300 was good for salt?

As Lee has already said, test strips are unreliable. However, I am curious about your comment that "the bottle said 300 was good for salt."

What exactly is the unit of measurement here? Are we talking about 300 ppm CaCO3 equivalents? If so, then 300 is NOT good for salt. It's really too high.

Whenever you give a number for any test result, you have to also give the unit of measurement.

Alkalinity is usually expressed as either meq/l (milliequivalents per liter) or dKH (degrees Karbonate hardness). If the 300 represents ppm as calcium carbonate equivalents, then we would divide that by 50 to get 6 meq/l and multiply that by 2.8 to get 16.8 dKH. That's higher than what would be considered "good for salt."

Natural seawater has an average alkalinity of 2.5 meq/l (7 dKH). Most hobbyists like to keep their aquariums between 8-12 dKH.

[stkmach]

As Lee has already said, test strips are unreliable. However, I am curious about your comment that "the bottle said 300 was good for salt."

What exactly is the unit of measurement here? Are we talking about 300 ppm CaCO3 equivalents? If so, then 300 is NOT good for salt. It's really too high.

Whenever you give a number for any test result, you have to also give the unit of measurement.

Alkalinity is usually expressed as either meq/l (milliequivalents per liter) or dKH (degrees Karbonate hardness). If the 300 represents ppm as calcium carbonate equivalents, then we would divide that by 50 to get 6 meq/l and multiply that by 2.8 to get 16.8 dKH. That's higher than what would be considered "good for salt."


Natural seawater has an average alkalinity of 2.5 meq/l (7 dKH). Most hobbyists like to keep their aquariums between 8-12 dKH.

The bottle said it was rated in ppm sorry. If the alk is that high what could I do to lower it?

Also would a dead mangrove cause the nitrates to be elevated? Not sure if it was but I have one that hasn't grown in the past week so I took it out, it otherwise looks fine.





Posted via Mobile Device

[Ninong]

The bottle said it was rated in ppm sorry. If the alk is that high what could I do to lower it?

It will gradually lower itself provided you aren't using a defective salt mix, which sometimes happens. Anyway, Lee is waiting for you to get your new real test kits so that you can post more reliable information; he will then give you suggestions on what, if anything, you should do. In the meantime, even if your alkalinity is truly 16 dKH, it won't cause problems. That would be higher than it should be but not something that would be considered an emergency.

[stkmach]

ok so i got the KH it tested twice for 10 dkh which is about right i think?

Still waiting on Mag.

[leebca]

What is "right" is that the three are balanced. Please read through this post: What is Water Quality

Within the above linked post you'll find a table listing Calcium, Alkalinity, and Magnesium. That table shows the balanced numbers of each. So if your Alkalinity is 10 dKh then you should have a 432 ppm Calcium and a 1200 ppm Magnesium.

It's not just being in the desired range, it's a matter of balancing the three and the table shows the numbers that are balanced.

[stkmach]

Ok well i finally got the Magnesium test kit and if this is correct it was 1420ppm I checked it twice. I am going to check the others tomorrow again to see if they have changed.

salinity is 1.026

And i planed on doing a 15g change tomorrow?

Also in the process of switching salt from instant ocean to coralife. Tomorrow is the second time and a 50/50 mix of each salt.

[stkmach]

Alk 11dka
Calcium 420ppm
salinity 1.026
nitrates 20-40 ppm

Did a 15g H20 change.

[leebca]

Now that we have the data, you'll want to move the numbers to be in balance. If running calcium at 420-421 ppm is your choice (and that's a good number to use), then you'll want your alkalinity to measure 8.5 dKh (or 3.03 meq/l) and the magnesium at 1175 ppm. Let the Alkalinity and Magnesium go down on their own, but keep the Calcium up at that level. I don't know what you use for additives. If it's store-bought mixes, then you'll need to switch to a Calcium additive only.

Continue to use those test kits to monitor the drop in Alk and Mg.

With the organics present it isn't a surprise that the nitrates continue. Something I would guess is decomposing. Are you sure the mangroves are healthy and that there isn't something there in the sump that is decomposing?

I would modify your water changes. Frequent small water changes (which is now being done) is good for stability but not optimum for exporting. You'll want to choose a water change that does more exporting -- which are larger water changes. After checking out the mangroves and anything that my be decomposing and then removing them, do a very large (80%) water change. Then 25% weekly. Once nitrates are down, 25% every two weeks should be good.

Something is contributing to the organics in the water, you'll need to hunt that down and remove it/them. I have suspicion of the mangroves and/or something in the substrate. Are you using any kind of 'mud' in or below the substrate?

How is the new rock doing? Is the water still clear? Any bad smells coming from DT and/or the sump?