Ich: Losing the battle...

[majorpay]

The fish is swimming upright again today, but staying on the bottom corner of the tank. There is a sponge/bio filter installed, and I will increase the water change to 80%. Obviously there will be a struggle to keep this tank where it should be for four weeks.. I have to admit (as should be obvious) that I thought this fish was done. Laying on the bottom of the tank has always been an indicator to me that a fish's time is up.

Also, the water changes are performed with a syphon vacuum attachment, so the waste is always removed from the bottom during water changes.

[leebca]

You need to do everything you can to prevent the increases in ammonia and nitrite (as well as control them). I recommend you pick up uneaten food right after the feeding.

You should find that in a few weeks (how long is never known exactly) the sponge filter will take over and you can return to water changes every other or third day. Keep testing the water before each water change and if any ammonia or nitrite is detected, proceed with the water change. If none is detected, skip that water change.

[majorpay]

Well, the flame angel is looking good. He still spends a lot of time in his home, but I am starting to believe that he just doesn't care for his small, bare enclosure that much. He has started eating and is looking fairly healthy.

The chocolate chip starfish went back to the pet store as I purchased 3 condi anemones, and he immediately started to go for one of them. The display tank is doing very well and there is now the purple and red, coraline hard algae peppering everything, with a few rocks being well covered by this color. The tank is looking great, and the anemones are a very colorful welcome addition!

I have added a red fire shrimp, a blue regal urchin, two scallops, and a gigantic nudibranch to the tank. I understand the nudibranch is going to eat himself out of a job and will require sheets of algae for supplement.

Needless to say, the pet store owners are not thrilled at the methods you and I have put together for removing the ich, but you can't argue with results!

I have just dropped a pair of mollies in the main tank as guinea pigs to test for ich presence and will leave them there for a few weeks. First sign of ich, they get transferred, and they get dropped in fresh water, and we start the fun over again The way I look at it though is that $2 per molly is a heck of a lot cheaper than $40 for a salt water fish.

[majorpay]

Oh yes, and as for the segregation tank, I believe once we are done with that (a few weeks), I will drop a few mollies or something of that nature in there to keep the tank going for new fish arrivals in the future. NO FISH will EVER be dropped in the display tank again!

[sober_pollock]

Is dropping the mollies in the display tank a "fool-proof" way to test for ich?.....

Has the tank been fishless for eight weeks or more?

Isn't it possible the mollies you use to test with can bring ich with them?


pollock

[majorpay]

Is dropping the mollies in the display tank a "fool-proof" way to test for ich?.....

Has the tank been fishless for eight weeks or more?

Isn't it possible the mollies you use to test with can bring ich with them?


pollock

The mollies were fresh water originally, so no, you can't bring marine ich from a fresh water tank. The fishless requirement by my understanding is 4 weeks.

Unfortunately, in my case, the main tank was originally hyposalinated (stupid, I know now), so it would be less likely to have ich now, but the same process should still be applied. It will still be a few weeks with the mollies before the transfer is considered however.

[sober_pollock]

Below is the link to Lees post about Marine Ich.....It is the first thread in the "Marine fish: Care, Health and Disease Treatment" section of Reefland.....

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

In that post you will find the following statement:

It is number 10 under "Treatments:"

.....10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success......

pollock

[majorpay]

Not sure how we originally skated by that. Interesting as ich is only supposed to have a 30 day life cycle... Perhaps for safety sake?

[majorpay]

Here is what I have gathered:

The display tank needs to be kept clear of fish for 6-9 weeks, the longer the better. This gives time for the encysted tomonts to release infectious theronts, which die within 24-48 hours when they cannot find a host.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocaryon

Cryptocaryon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Back to the fresh water tank...

Apparently, I confused the hyposalinity process with the display tank segregation.

[leebca]

Book and documented information about life cycles are average times. For instance, Dr. Burgess found a Marine Ich parasite in its cyst stage that 'laid around' for 6 weeks and was still 'alive' and could infect. The 'fishless time' was originally 4 weeks until this was found, then moved to 8 weeks. This takes care of a 6-week cyst and 2 weeks (on the high side of the range for their living at this stage) for the cyst to open and the parasites to die while looking for a new host. The 60-day cyst is also possible, but in the area of 1:100,000 likely, and that is why the 8 weeks isn't 100% reliable. The fallow time went from a 4-week 95% success ratio to a 8-week over 99.9% success ratio. However, anyone is free to use a shorter time, so long as it is understood that the chances of there still be a living parasite(s) goes up as the time goes down.

I provide advice on the conservative side to increase the likelihood of success.

I know it's a lot of information, but those who are wondering check the post: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts Item 4. It's a matter of putting Item 4. together with Item 10 in another section.

[majorpay]

Thanks again Lee... All I can say is a "cure" is long overdue

Is the molly test an "ok" test when we are "ready" for fish life to begin again, or is this particular fish less susceptible to ich being of the freshwater variety?

[leebca]

The test isn't a top way forward. The reason the QT is limited in space is to get the parasite in small quarters where it will bloom in population and let the hobbyist easily see it.

So a few small fish like the mollies in a larger aquarium might not display infection and lead you to a false conclusion. I would skip the mollies and just let the tank 'do its time.' Be sure to keep lights going, circulation going, etc. and keep the temperature in its normal area/range while the tank waits, fishless.

When you think the fish are free of spots for at least 4 weeks after you saw the last spot, raise the specific gravity back up to normal over a 7 or 8-day time and then hold the fish there another 4 weeks to verify they are cured.

[majorpay]

Will do... Man... The black mollies when I took them out, over the course of the 6-7 hrs they were in the tank had several white salt like spots on them... I am starting to wonder how ridiculously infested the DT really is. I am beside myself... I took the mollies immediately out and dropped them in the fresh water tank.

Just to recap:

The nudibranch, shrimp, scallops, anemones, urchins, and snails cannot keep ich alive, right?
(can you tell I love the bottom life? )

And are the tiny white salt like spots I see floating in the tank ich? There are perhaps thousands of these things, but they are barely visible. I have seen these for quite a while and am starting to wonder if what I am actually seeing is Cryptocaryon in it's free floating stage?

Sorry for playing 1 million questions, but this is both irritating and fascinating at the same time. These creatures are more like an epidemic than a nuisance...

[sober_pollock]

.....The nudibranch, shrimp, scallops, anemones, urchins, and snails cannot keep ich alive, right? .....

No.....They cannot support the Marine Ich.....But.....You have to give the tank the time it needs to become "Marine Ich Free"


pollock

[leebca]

Remember this: The clock for the 8-week fallow period starts when the last fish was removed from the display tank. So if the mollies were just removed, the first fallow day is the day after they were taken out.

The invertebrates are fine -- don't need to be removed. They cannot support the Marine Ich parasite.

You won't be able to see the actual parasite with the unaided eye. They are too small. So what you are seeing is definitely something else. If it's alive it may not be a problem, if its inert (not alive) it is something that should be filtered. You want to use mechanical filters that will remove 100 micron sized particles.

[majorpay]

Honestly, I am fairly apathetic with the fish thing at the moment and am enjoying the invert tank... Someday I figure it will have fish, but collecting the inverts has been a fun, and most of all, rewarding sport and much less awful than the whole fish thing (no death, no disease, just interesting creatures) . I must say that the Cryptocaryn has been interesting as well (I never knew about these pests, or the startling numbers of infected fish before this site / research / starting this hobby).

I'll put the flame back (of course) in due time as he is an attractive fish (when I can see him), but I know that the inverts that were added may not be able to support the life, but definitely carry the disease with them (another consideration).

Just to mark the calendar for sure, October 27th the other fish will go in... This should be ~90 days.

I have also thought about rerouting my ideas to an invert only tank and buying a secondary tank for fish. Perhaps one that someone wants to offload on craigs list. This has been a botched job from day one on my part and the rectification may be to just start over again while keeping the current tank as it is.

The fish that I would ultimately like to have are incompatible with the ground life anyhow, not to mention that my tank is too small to support much life ATM - 55G...
(puffers, lions, etc)

I am armed this time thanks to this site and learning things the hard way, so perhaps second time will be more of a success...

I had always heard about the laborious efforts put in by saltwater hobbyists, but based on the LFS and what not, most had said: "nah, it's easy once established." The established part is getting past their ich infested tanks and sea life which could take months, or perhaps up to a year I love the water changes and what not and don't mind them one bit (my 5 yr old daughter enjoys doing the syphon thing and mixing saltwater). I like maintaining the food and some of the challenges it faces, but ich is the ultimate unspoken bane of the fish world (prob why LFS's are hush hush about this sort of thing at first).

[majorpay]

Also, I'd never want to get this far into the game where external plumbing as large as the tank that took up half my garage had to be installed

[sober_pollock]

majorpay:
Please forgive me if I'm taking this the wrong way.....

When you say "but definitely carry the disease with them" below.....

.....but I know that the inverts that were added may not be able to support the life, but definitely carry the disease with them (another consideration)......

Are you refering to Marine Ich?

Because if you are.....No.....Once they have been in the tank with no fish for eight weeks or more, and nothing else has been added to the tank, then they can't carry it either.

Again, sorry if I'm taking you wrong, I just wanted to make sure you are clear on this.


pollock

[majorpay]

majorpay:
Please forgive me if I'm taking this the wrong way.....

When you say "but definitely carry the disease with them" below.....



Are you refering to Marine Ich?

Because if you are.....No.....Once they have been in the tank with no fish for eight weeks or more, and nothing else has been added to the tank, then they can't carry it either.

Again, sorry if I'm taking you wrong, I just wanted to make sure you are clear on this.


pollock

Oh no... I just meant adding them from a fish store could carry their disease into your tank without even knowing it. I realize if nothing is added, it will die off regardless of the inverts.

Now that the angel is cured, I have had my 50/50 thoughts on whether it should go back to the store, or whether it should be kept in the 10 for a while. I don't want to impose a long quarantine on the poor guy, but I can't express my interest in the bottom life enough. Between the spreading coralline algae and all of the anemones and shrimp and what have you, it has become a borderline addiction on a weekly basis

I love the fish, but I don't want to be unfair to the angel either (he's been through a lot to get as healthy as he is now... the ich he originally had was ridiculous).

[majorpay]

I discovered what the white free floating things are (perhaps hundreds) as I first believed this to be Cryptocaryn, but was later set straight on this by Lee. These are also found crawling on the back of the tank if you look closely. I believe these to be copepods and amphipods. These *should be* (by my best research) beneficial to my anemones and shrimp as a source of food.

I bought some green algae to feed the Sea Hare today, and ended up with two pets! Two baby brittle starfish! One was a perfect specimen, and the other one had a few legs missing. Both found homes in the tank between some rocks! $3 for food and two new life forms! I also found something interesting with many legs in the food that I don't believe should be introduced to my tank as it appears foreign to anything I have seen. A tiny furry caterpillar thing (but short) looking thing was buried in there as well as well as multiple worms. Quality control may be an issue with this green food.... Most of this appears to be alive??

Looking closely at the DT reveals teams of real cool looking life... spider webs being realed out to catch food, tiny plants growing where once there was nothing, and of course, corraline. This tank is no doubt alive!

Sorry, I am a noob, and this is like a kid at christmas type ordeal for me...

(if you look in the background, no, that's not stars, those are the "bugs" I was talking about. The free floating ones are not visible in the photo, but there are tons of these.)