Ich: Losing the battle...

[majorpay]

Well my salinity is at 1.01 and the puffer was sitting at the bottom of the tank for the past few days... surprisingly, he actually moved, as I found him on the other side of the tank tonight... UNFORTUNATELY, I have been reading too much misinformation and have been getting my facts wrong (specifically about using Jets to keep the water oxygenated). I had the Jet on and this was specifically what you said NOT TO DO . I lost my puffer... Sad day indeed... I have spent endless days just reading and reading... This site primarily, but all this over-reading and over-thinking appears to cause me to lose some of the smaller, but important details.

The flame angel is eating like a champ now, but I don't like the way he swims... he tends to lean slightly to one side (right side) and tends to stay towards the top of the tank. I tested the water, and perhaps the ammonia is just *slightly* higher than usual, but I was doing water changes every day last week working on the gradual drop in salinity. This is the first day I actually didn't do a 10g water change!

The mollies are VERY active, but this really isn't an indication of anything. I get the feeling those guys could survive in the sewers. They seem to be extremely tough fish...

What now? Is there anything else I can do to keep the flame angel alive? Is the occasional lean normal for the current of the water? If he's eating good, is that necessarily an indication that he's ok? Why does he still have a decent amount of ich at this low of salinity? Shouldn't it be impossible for the ich to survive? Am I just needlessly panicking?

On the opposite side of things, the invertebrate tank and fresh water tank is doing brilliantly :| Starfish, snails, shrimp, horseshoe crab and urchin are eating, thriving, and very active... Such a dynamic atmosphere in this tank, but the horseshoe crab, regardless of being entertaining, doesn't appear to be of the "brilliant variety"

All tanks are completely clear, with no color tinge minus tiny white particles that are barely visible...

HYPOSALINITY TANK CONDITIONS:

PH: 8.1-8.2
SALINITY: 1.01
AMMONIA: 0.0 to 0.25 on fresh water scale
NITRATES: 0
TEMPERATURE: 79.0f
BIOFILTER: ON
JET: OFF!!!
LIGHTS: ON (daytime)
TANK SIZE: 60g

[leebca]

I understand where you're coming from. There is a lot in the details. When I write, I try to provide as much details as possible. In some way, I also try to provide the reasons for the recommendations, so that (I hope) with a bigger picture, bigger understanding, it would be logical to choose to follow the details.

It is frustrating to me to write all these things out and then have someone modify my recommendation and then wonder why things didn't go the way it was supposed to. I sometimes lose my patience in such situations. I have the 'hate mail' to prove it!

BUT, when the poster is up front about it, I'm okay with it. We (you and I) can manage anything, no matter how bad, so long as we are working from the position of truth and accuracy. Now back to the matter at hand. . .

I have a few concerns. They are, in no particular order:
1. What is the nitrite reading? Don't see it on the list. That must be measured and must be zero, too.
2. What is meant by 'slightly higher than usual' ammonia reading? That should be zero all the time.
3. Water changes are a part of the process. I recommend every other day or third day (max) to do a very large water change.
4. How is the specific gravity being controlled? That is, what tool are you using? You should be using a refractometer that is made to measure salt water. Ideally that would be calibrated to sea water, but it should be at least be built/made for salt water.
5. Photo shows the fish is also suffering from secondary bacterial infection. Not unusual, but the fish has at least two biological problems to overcome now.
6. I don't know exactly how many days the sp. gr. has been at 1.01.
7. The behavior of the Angel is not normal -- fish don't normally list while going through this treatment.
8. I would like the actual list of foods being fed. I would like to know how often the fish is fed. Lastly, I'd like to understand how much food is being fed at each meal. This last is hard, but use your own words and try to tell me so that I understand the quantity being fed at each meal.

If performed properly, the hyposalinity treatment doesn't actually kill the parasite. It stresses it to death. A bit of a fine point, but that's how it works. Thus, once the final specific gravity of 1.008 (the recommended number) is reached, in a few days, the numbers of those spots should decrease and then go away altogether. So IF the sp. gr. is where it should be and it has been more than 10 days, then the fish should show very few or no spots. At least the spots I see shouldn't be there.

I am concerned about why the Puffer died. Wish I had more info on that. It might help the Flame to pull through.

For right now, you need to provide me the missing information I need. if you don't mind. Tell me everything. Don't spare any detail even if you think it isn't important. I think I can trust you for that.

I think you may have to abandon the hyposalinity treatment. But don't do that yet. I would like you to be prepared to shift to a copper treatment. So I would like you to obtain immediately the following:
Cupramine medication
A Salifert or SeaChem Copper Test Kit for saltwater
Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish (an antibiotic)

The Cupramine medication is administered by drops, which is very innacurate. You can do it that way, but if you have by chance any access to a graduated cylinder (a 10ml graduated cylinder or a smaller one), or a 10ml graduated pipet and bulb, then obtain that, too.

I would like you to treat the fishes you have with the antibiotic, so get it and use it as soon as possible, even in the hyposaline water, even in the copper treated water, so be sure to act fast on this. Follow directions that come with the Maracyn Two as to how much to add. NOTE: if you can't get Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes, then you can also use Maracyn Two for freshwater fishes. But that is the only substitution I will agree to.

Waiting to hear back from you.

[majorpay]

1. That was my bad... The "nitrate" reading was actually the "nitrite" reading. It was late...

2. The pet store used a different card than I was issued with my test kit that was specifically for salt water. According to them, my ammonia readings were at 0. I see it is yellow with just a hint of green tinge, and according to the fresh water chart, I find this to be .25 ... Since the water has been cycled, it has remained pretty much at this point the whole time (the whole time meaning a week or two). Odd thing is my fresh water tank reads identical (perhaps I have a color perception issue... )

3. I was doing 10 gallons every day... I am going to need a whole lot more salt if I am going to be hitting up large water changes on a regular basis ;)

4. I am using a hydrometer and am reading at 1.01. I know now the hydrometer is not the best choice; however, I am starting to believe we are a little behind on the fish type of things. In the area encompassing a 40 mile radius from my location, there are only two remaining fish stores that actually sell salt water fish. Every other one has closed given the current status of the economy. It may be time to start turning my attention online for my needs. I have been relying on them to tell me what the best of everything is.... to date, based on your suggestions, you'd be shocked, but I digress...

5. Clearly you recognize something I don't. I am VERY new to this hobby, but persistent none the less.

6. 1.01 has been the sp. gr. for only 2 days. I have been dropping it by .02-.04 by doing twice a day water changes for the past week. Initially (taking the recommendation of the pet store), I had lowered it to 1.022, but as you and I both know, that is still way too high to take care of this situation.

7. I guess I am a little sensitive to seeing a fish lean as one of the stores close to me sold me a fish when I started this tank that they shouldn't have... The lean gives me deja vu to that tragedy.

8. The food... I have the pellets (I'm not near them, but I know they are called "alpha" something or another that all the local pet stores swear by), I have the salt water flakes (Tetramarine I think?), and lastly I have the frozen krill (the angel is not a fan of this, and is not really crazy about the pellets). I have to apologize if the food seems odd... Essentially when I started this tank, I walked into a store and said I wanted the best of whatever I needed... This is how I ended up with all my equipment, food, etc... Currently the fish are being fed once a night with the full arsenal of my foods. I will no longer be providing the krill to this tank anymore; however, I will continue it on the invertebrate tank (of course). I try to provide enough food so that the angel actually has a chance to grab 6-7 pieces total. This looks something like a pinch of the flakes (perhaps 10-11 flakes) and a small amount of pellets (perhaps 20-25?). I say that I try to feed an amount so the angel can grab 6-7 pieces, and the reason being is that the mollies in the tank are absurd... They grab everything and anything in the tank and it is gone within seconds...

The puffer had been laying on the tank for a while now. Same spot, never moved. I got him to pay attention to food, but only enough so that he would look at it, nip at it, spit it out, then go back into his corner. The part of him dying was both a bit of a shock to me and a very unfortunate learning experience. Apparently he had moved to the opposite side of the tank last night (which is unheard of) and managed to get caught by the jet (when he was "healthy," he would go near it, but never close enough to get caught). This stressed him out, he puffed up, and minutes after the rescue, he was dead. Yes, I do feel like an idiot. I really don't understand how he got over there as he spent all of his time laying on the floor on the opposite side of the tank gasping for air with his tail tucked. The ich had appeared to have encased him. After the incident, I saw what a stressed puffer looks like for the first time... His color drastically changed. I hope I won't ever have to see something like this again.

I will look into what the local pet store has for the treatments you recommended tonight... I am slightly afraid of treating this tank as I expect that someday it will have the invertebrates back in it. Is the tank permanently ruined post treatment? Do I need to grab a third tank?

So many people saying so many things, and of course the two pet stores I deal with brow beat you and even shun you for taking some of this advice... If they want my business they will get over it though. I guess it's just that they have a whole lot of power being the only suppliers of fish in a 40 mile radius. Perhaps I need to start turning my attention to online fish purchases... It's where I have decided to go for advice as I have been told some RIDICULOUS things...

[majorpay]

Just to further elaborate on my locale and accessibility to fish items, I do not live in the boonies or anything like that. I live in a fairly large city, so we do have Petco, Petsmart, etc... It is just that the salt water fish stores specifically have been run out of business for the most part. It makes buying salt water fish and salt water specific supplies sometimes a burden. Pricing has skyrocketed on the remaining stores. Luckily a lot of items can be purchased through the larger conglomerates that do not offer salt water fish, but carry these items.

[leebca]

Choosing whose advice to follow is always hard. Once you do make the choice, stick to it the best you can. Always ask for credentials from the person(s) you take advice from. Mine are here for you to see and decide if they are good enough for you: Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

The choice of whom to take advice is totally yours to make. ;;

2. You may want to get a test kit just suited to salt water. If you go online, check out some of the sponsors of this Forum and get Salifert test kits, if you can. At least begin with those before you find others to use. Most find them easy to use and I can back their accuracy. Always check expiration dates and use fresh kits.

3. 10/day is probably too frequent. Do 50% every two or three days. Choose 2 days if you see any ammonia or nitrite readings; every 3 days if no poisons are showing up. If ammonia and/or nitrite readings are obvious (above trace) perform a large water change immediately.

4. & 6. Hydrometer is a wrong piece of equipment for this. I don't want you to give up on the hyposalinity treatment, but you must have the proper refractometer. How fast can you get one? (Rhetorical question -- get one immediately). Too soon to tell if its working well or not, but if the sp. gr. is wrong, this fish is going to die. Must have the correct sp. gr. to perform this treatment with success.

7. Could be a reaction to bacteria now getting a foot hold internally. Better get the antibiotic into that tank as fast as you can.

8. Sorry. Foods and feedings are way off. Not optimal by any means. Pellets and flakes are on the low end of the forms of foods to choose. More reading: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition and pay close attention regarding food forms (forms include pellet, flake, frozen, live, etc.). Next note feeding frequency should be no less than 3 times per day. You will have to hold the Mollies back to give the Angel a proper chance to eat. Note feedings should include vitamin and fat supplements (recommendations given in the post). You need to help this fish the best you can with the top quality of foods (which you asked for at the start, but were given standard answers). You had good intentions at the start, but weren't given the best answers, in my opinion.

Regarding some of your other questions and concerns:
a. Not to worry. A tank used with copper can be cleaned and used for inverts. Just takes a special cleaning which you can find in this forum. But, is the tank you're using a QT or does it have substrate or rock in it? My advice is based upon a standard QT described here: A Fish Quarantine Process.

b. From your description, it seems like online shopping would be to your benefit. You'll need to get the pipeline filled for the delivery of the things you need, so you have what you need, when you need it.

Keep moving forward.

[majorpay]

Where do you find one of these refractometers in the general public? I saw one in Fort Collins at Grainger, but I think they only deal in B2B. I am not seeing any listed on the websites of Petco or Petsmart, so where exactly are these found (besides laboratories)?

According to the food chart, it would appear this fish should be eating the krill (or other meaty foods @ 65%)... This is odd as it has never shown an active interest in it AT ALL. The only thing it has cared to even look at has been the marine flake food. I will need to see what I can get in terms of the vegetation foods and what other frozen foods we have available. Like I said, the industry is on it's way out here. I think people are finding it economically draining and perhaps too time consuming. The second part is ok for me as I have enjoyed it up until now and so has the daughter, but the first part....? I've been avoiding looking at my bank account

The tank currently has a coral substrate in it. The "live" rock has been removed to another tank... Plain rock has been put in and stacked to allow the (once living) puffer his usual spot in the tank to wedge himself into...

This isn't a QT, this is the DT. See, it seemed like it was the better choice to QT the DT by removing the inverts... Hindsight, maybe not...

[majorpay]

Disregard the previous question... I found out that one of the two fish stores actually carry a refractometer.

[leebca]

The DT won't work well for a copper treatment. Overall you are correct, not the best of ideas the way you're doing it. It almost forces you into only one treatment method. Even dosing the DT with the much needed antibiotic is a strain on the substrate and how it might absorb or alter the medication. You've chosen some deviant pathways overall. Usually one or two is manageable, but yours is a bit of a list.

If it comes to a copper treatment, then I would agree that you move the fishes into a proper QT and maybe take the opportunity to put a divider in the QT to keep the mollies separated from the Angel.

Marine fishes can and do get into habits. What they should eat and what they eat can be, like human children, something that needs correcting. The flakes may provide a certain smell or flavor (like from salmon) the Angel has gotten to know and like. You can start by mixing flakes in with the new food. Other ideas are here: Getting Fish to Eat the Right Foods

It is really important to start using vitamin supplements to help the sick fish. I don't think you have much choice but to do some online shopping.

You have the answer, however I might add that the proper refractometers are available on eBay and many Internet sites at reasonable prices.

[majorpay]

I'm tempted to just drop the mollies into the FW tank...

As for the QT, the issue was the size requirement for the fish. Using the 5g per inch of fish rule, I would need a fish tank far outside of what I could afford with the amount of money already dumped to date (not to mention the space requirements for such a QT)...

9 mollies x ~1 x 5 = 45 gallon
1 puffer x ~2 x 5 = 10 gallon
1 angel x ~4? x 5 = 20 gallon

I think this may be conservative on fish sizes, but with this in mind, you have a 75 gallon tank. I am starting off with a 60, so if I could afford a 75, that would be my DT in the first place You see the dilemma... Knowing that the space restrictions and waste production of inverts is minimal, I decided to relocate them instead of the fish. It "worked" as the inverts are active and happy, but... well... you know the rest.

My solution if I could redo this with my current situation would be to transfer inverts back to main tank, use smaller tank for the one fish and throw the mollies in the FW tank and be done with it...

This presents one of those fox, baby, poison scenarios that would have to be figured out on how to effectively make the switch...

Knee jerk reaction would be:

1. Dump mollies to FW
2. Put inverts in bucket with current water (short-term solution).
3. Fill invert tank up with DT water.
4. Put angel in invert (QT) tank.
5. Bring salinity in DT immediately up to original QT levels.
6. Place inverts in DT.

voila... sort of... it sounds like an awful lot of moving parts and kind of scary...

[leebca]

Your idea for the mollies is good, I think.

All you have is the Angel now. So can you setup a 10 gallon for it? That will be large enough for it. Fish length is measured from the mouth to the base of the tail (not including the tail). I'd be surprised if the Angel you have is over 2.5 inches. Still, the 10 will be good enough, with a sponge filter, cheap light, heater, etc. One of those chain stores you mentioned earlier should offer a package deal for under $40. At this time, you don't want to use too large of aquarium.

I would then: Move the Angel into the 10 as soon as it's setup. Do what you want with the mollies, then raise the sp. gr. first on the DT, then bring all other marine life back into the DT. Clean out and dry the tank you were using to hold the inverts. Since there was disease in that tank (even though no fish) which may not have died yet, follow this cleaning process for that tank, as if it had disease: Marine System Clean Up Recommendations

Note too on the above link -- A procedure is given on how to clean a tank that has had copper in it.

Keep us informed.

[yheartsp]

good luck major ! i have a maroon that had ich when i first got him, used the hyposalinity treatment for one month ( thanks to lee's guidance ) and he's been well and thriving now =) ( it's been 2 months already ) ;)

[majorpay]

Thanks yheart and Lee... Yes, I have the angel in an empty tank with a fake rusted vase decoration I had in the garage... He has managed to figure out how to get himself in and out of the vase through the holes in the side and has made it his home. He looks a ton better and is eating, but still doesn't touch the krill. He has one small dot on his tail fin, but the rest of the ich appears to have vanished. I lost a tank heater in the process of moving the fish during the water change when it exploded.... Another $60 to my hobby again tonight ;) Live and learn, I guess.

The invertebrates are loving their huge space, but I am concerned about the ability to feed them in such a large tank. The star comes to the top with his "arms" out waiting for me to drop a piece of krill on him, but the others go to random parts of the tank, so I am concerned for them as well, but so far so good ;)

The mollies went into the fresh water tank and we lost one in the transition, but we still have 8 more of those crazy things... Now it's just a sit and wait game, but at least the regular water changes will be a heck of a lot easier in the 10 gallon.

[leebca]

Sounds like you're on the right path, Grasshopper.

What kind of star is it, again?

[majorpay]

Sounds like you're on the right path, Grasshopper.

What kind of star is it, again?

Chocolate Chip Star. The urchin is up in the same corner waiting for food as well - smart for invertebrates. The shrimp shed his skin last night, so this tank is looking pretty good.

Also, very little data is published on the horseshoe crab... Any ideas on food?

[leebca]

This star should be fed mostly on the bottom. Wait for it to go onto the substrate and place some marine fish flesh, mostly whole marine life form, under one of its arms. The amount should be about a table spoon full for a star that is about 4" in diameter. This is what it should be fed once a week.

Actually, the Horseshoe crab is one of those invertebrates that should not be in the home aquarium. They really can't be kept for their lifespan. They get to about 2 to 3 feet in size. They eat the same as the star, only less food and then only twice a week.

[majorpay]

This star should be fed mostly on the bottom. Wait for it to go onto the substrate and place some marine fish flesh, mostly whole marine life form, under one of its arms. The amount should be about a table spoon full for a star that is about 4" in diameter. This is what it should be fed once a week.

Actually, the Horseshoe crab is one of those invertebrates that should not be in the home aquarium. They really can't be kept for their lifespan. They get to about 2 to 3 feet in size. They eat the same as the star, only less food and then only twice a week.

Got it...

Is there any truth to Horseshoe crabs that are (permanently) small in side? This appears to be what the selling community is pitching on to the public. Mine is about an inch with what looks like a white plastic shell (I have never seen any pictures that look like it).

Horseshoe Crab (Limulus polyphemus)

Thanks for the info on the feeding as well. I'd tend to believe that the star got its "begging" habits from the store. I will attempt to break him of it.

[leebca]

That is their size when young. Read closely what they say about this life form. They don't claim theirs won't outgrow the tank, nor do they claim the ones they sell will remain that size.

Read not only what they say about what they offer, but what they don't say. Good marketing can get people to 'see something' that isn't there.

Now, let's take a look at another posting:
Horseshoe Crab, Limulus polyphemus at MarineBio.org

From the above:
1. They grow large;
2. They are not tropical -- they prefer cooler waters of the Atlantic northern coast;
3. They take so long to reach sexual maturity that their numbers must be kept high or they will easily become extinct. Their eggs supply a lot of other marine life a means of sustenance.

1. Not suitable for a home aquarium;
2. In a tropical marine aquarium, they slowly cook to death -- water temperature should be around 70 or less.
3. Harvesting/collecting them should be crime -- it most likely will be soon.

[majorpay]

That's definitely not good... I am guessing the best bet would be to take it back to the pet store.

Advertising such as this is both misleading and downright wrong:

Horseshoe Crab - Group of 3 (Limulus polyphemus)

You are right... It's ommission of details, not necessarily "false advertisement."

[majorpay]

As of today, the Flame angel is much more colorful now. His black stripes are much darker, his purple fins are more pronounced now. He spends 99% of his time hiding in his fake vase and barely even eats (this is a concern), but either way.. he *looks* 1000% better when it comes to color? The food falls to the bottom of the tank and builds up, but the regular water changes (at least every other day, sometimes every day) take care of this.


EDIT
----------------------
Ok, I have found a much more sinister issue lurking in this tank tonight. All of a sudden, the nitrites and the ammonia have headed upwards slightly (light green and purple on the scale)... A 60 percent water change didn't even seem to phase it!!! I thought by adding water from the main tank originally (which was hyposalinated), I could skip the cycle process. I guess not. Thinking about this logically, are the healthy bacteria even able to survive in a hyposalinity environment? Since this is a bare bottom tank, there is no live rock to assist in the process!

I've got a bad feeling about this...... When I started the main tank, I had no idea about any of this, so needless to say, I didn't have a "cycled" 10 ready to go. Saying that, I don't think a medical tank calls for it, right? Having a cycled segregation tank would have been nice though...

Color looks great, but I think I am going to end up with a dead colorful fish.... He has started swimming on his side. Sad is the understatement of the year... The fortune I have spent on tools, medication, tanks, etc (not to mention the countless hours) trying to save these fish doesn't even compare to the dissappointment of watching both fish die off. Perhaps this is like gardening and one needs to have a "blue thumb."

Man, this has been a disheartening start to this hobby... I see why people give up on salt water. At least the inverts are happy and I have a pretty bright purple algae starting to spread on a few rocks... :|

And to think, a MINIMUM of 30% of all fish from LFS's have ich... <insert expletives here>

Starting to feel like an idiot (more so), and starting to feel hopeless, but I believe your advice is the best out there Lee, so thanks for everything you have helped me with so far. The LFS doesn't tell you much going into this hobby, even when talking to them for hours. I hope more people read your site when going into this hobby and don't make the same mistakes.

I won the battle on ich, but think I lost the battle with the fish... I'll keep you posted, but I think tomorrow will bring worse news

I keep reading your hyposalinity post over and over to see if I missed something. I wish I could fix this before it's too late, but I don't know what to do now?? I turned off all the lights... Perhaps getting some sleep would be good...

[leebca]

Although you are performing a hyposalinity treatment now in a quarantine tank, the rules and things that need to be done for quarantine tanks still apply: A Quarantine Process (step-by-step)

Water doesn't contain enough of the bacteria to put a biological filter into place. Sounds like the fish is now a victim of poisoning.

Remove all uneaten food (by siphon). Remove all fish waste by siphon. Do not expect the water change to take care of this waste build up. If there is a sponge filter in the QT as recommended, it will act as the biological filter for the QT, but it takes time. Nature is not to be rushed.

Bacteria in hyposalinity will still function, however going from normal salinity to hyposalinity can cause them to go into a kind of hibernation -- they slow their metabolism for a while. It takes time to establish a biological filter no matter where it's at.

You may have to continue with twice a day very large (80%) water changes to control the poisons (ammonia and nitrites). Since you'll need to do large water changes, make sure you do them so as to not shock the fish. Follow these recommendations: How to Make a Successful Water Change

Removing uneaten food and wastes and these large water changes which will remove the poisons, may result in the fish willing to eat again.

Good luck!