MV Struggles

[vaporize]

Hi Lee,

(1) During my many battle with MV, it seems that they always surface either around 2 weeks time frame, is that normal for their lifecycle?

(2) Since I am dealing with alot of clownfishes, they do have heavier slime coat. My observation is one day they are all happily eating and fighting on the 12th and the next day 13th I check on them, they will be covered in baking powder MV (and as you said, by symptoms show it is almost at the terminal stage). I find it very hard to battle such parasite and wondering if there are any preventive shot-gun measure that can be used to knock off these lethal killers early on. Unlike MI, that is slow and can be treated with copper, by the time MV shows itself on the fish it is almost too late to even try cupramine treatment.

- are there any preventure treatment that can be used early on? I know that you adovocate no medication until symptoms show but for this disease it is too risky

- what are your recommendations for first line of attack once I see the MV baking powdered fish? FW dip usually shown to be too stressful for the fish & its muscus coat.

[leebca]

Like Marine Ich, the Marine Velvet parasite has a cycle. That cycle varies with conditions and each stage of the cycle has its own time 'range.' The two weeks is relatively average, but for the most part, fish don't live that long with it. It kills in days, before it cycles. So the cycle isn't noticeable.

I believe to some extent, my FW bath procedure has in effect been a prophylactic approach to new acquisitions. MV is susceptible to death by FW exposure, so a dip helps. It doesn't cure, we know that. But I believe I see less of it in my experience after I used my dip process.

But unless you plan to setup and use a quarantine process and procedures to prevent it entering the system, new additions will just face the parasite all over again. New fishes should have this parasite at a rate of less than 2%.

No treatment is as easy to control and administer than the copper treatment. But to put 49 out of 50 fishes through the treatment that don't need it is a bit of a shame to my way of thinking. However, this would be my preventative choice.

[vaporize]

Thanks LEE, I am not sure if questions should be in this sticky or in a seperate thread, so I will continue to ask here, feel free to move it to its own thread if you think I'm off topic.

Like Marine Ich, the Marine Velvet parasite has a cycle. That cycle varies with conditions and each stage of the cycle has its own time 'range.' The two weeks is relatively average, but for the most part, fish don't live that long with it. It kills in days, before it cycles. So the cycle isn't noticeable.

I am thinking the typical two weeks I've observed is when a carrier fish goes into QT and have their first on-body MV drop off eggs, and ~2 weeks is when the cycst hatch and go into free swimming and start to infect the host again (and can be seen on the host's body).

Yes, like you taught many times, by the time when MV is seen on host body with baking powder like symptoms, it's already terminal stage and the host has less than 50% survival after a day. In my experience in a tank of fish, usually all hosts will die off within 24-48 hours without treatment. Larger fish or pre-quarantined fish might be an exception and can take up to a month (to get kill, if no treatment).

In my experience, by the time the symptoms are shown on the host, even with just cupramine treatment most smaller hosts have less than 50% of survival (if caught early). That's why I am trying to investigate other combination treatment tactics (to discuss with you below)

I believe to some extent, my FW bath procedure has in effect been a prophylactic approach to new acquisitions. MV is susceptible to death by FW exposure, so a dip helps. It doesn't cure, we know that. But I believe I see less of it in my experience after I used my dip process.

I find it very hard to look at the settle white dust after a FW bath, there can be a multiple of things in there like dust, flukes etc... without a microscopic examination, I don't think anybody can really 'guess' if MV exist or not, thus not sure of the treatment. Like you said, although it might dislodge some MV, but it really does not guarantee a full kill like copper... so it might actually prolong the infestation lifecycle in a QT.

Like if a fish originally has 10 MV parasite, each drop 10 cycst. Then it has 100 cyst, so the next cycle when it hatches it has 100 x 250 = 25000 free swimming parasite to infect the host, so easier to seen on the host. But if you do FW dip, you might kill 9/10 MV, then next cycle only has 1/10; it might take 2 complete cycles for you to notice the infestation.

New fishes should have this parasite at a rate of less than 2%.

While it might be 2-3% natural infection rate, let us not forget the risk of the whole industry chain. From collectors to put together in an export station with other fish (X-contamination) to importer (X) to wholesaler (X) to retailer (X) to Hobbyists. There are alot more changes for them to cross contaminate with other chains. By the time the hobbyist get them, I observe almost an infection rate of easily 25-35%. With alot of LFS systems are connected, once MV gets into a system, it can stay with that LFS system for long, so that adds to the risk. Especially when alot of the players in the chain runs copper at various level (i.e. enough to prohibit a full explosion but not enough to totally eradicate)

With certain direct imports, I see MV infection rates up to 50% no less. Of course it is hard to know since most wholesaler/LFS have some levels of copper, so hobbyist only see them when they start to QT on their own.

No treatment is as easy to control and administer than the copper treatment. But to put 49 out of 50 fishes through the treatment that don't need it is a bit of a shame to my way of thinking. However, this would be my preventative choice.

I have dealt with this too many times, it would be a shame for me to 'hope & pray' that MV doesn't hit my 50 fishes 'this time' than to put them through a copper treatment; nowadays I actually use a combination of malachite green + formalin as a preventive measure (seems to be somewhat successful) for parasitic infection before symptoms are shown.

Question: That leads me to my next question, what would be the best way of "first treatment" when I see MV on my fish (in most cases, they are already covered in baking powder like powder by then). Reading the thread over 10 times, here is what i think, please let me know what you think of this:

(1) Assuming that we practice quarantine like you always recommended, so everything is done in QT.
(2) Use a malachite green + formalin bath to knock off some MV on the host. I try not to take the fish out to do formalin bath/FW dip because it is proven to be very stressful for the host and also all the netting will take out alot of mucus coating.
(3) Since MV that is not on host is either (1) cyst on the ground or (2) free swimming, I will siphon the barebottom QT and take out 90% of the water. Therefore it should eliminate a large density of the MV in the QT.
(4) Fill the QT back up with semi-hyposalinity at 1.015, so let the fish breath easier
(5) Use cupramine treatment on the QT. Since SG is at 1.015 and not 1.009-1.010, copper should not be more lethal. I think you mentioned that copper is more potent at lower SG.

Would this approach better than simply a "use cupramine" treatment as first attack?

[leebca]

Keep in mind that with these and most parasites, their life cycle stages vary in length (as noted in my previous and other posts). What this means is that it is almost impossible for ALL the parasites to be in the same stage at the same time.

You've got an infested system and fishes. The means to stop the 'insanity' is to remove fishes from their contaminated home, cure all fish, and let system sit without fish in it for about 10 weeks. If this is not possible or desirable, then I know of no other way to win the war.

If MV is discovered in the FW dip, they are put into copper treatment immediately. The FW dip process is very important for this reason, not so much a cure as we know it doesn't do. Hard to see? Use better lighting and a better background. Dirt? Use water you are sure is clean. Flukes present? The fish has other problems and needs help. Make a bigger effort in this area. Maybe the comparison method will help:

Make up two FW baths. One you use, one you don't. Compare the two after the fish goes through one of them.

The FW dip does not alter the parasite's life cycle. This is now moving a little bit toward voodoo. Neither does the moon stage affect its life cycle.

The object of the FW is diagnostic so that you start the copper treatment to prevent the next cycle or seriously reduce it.

My 2% is fish coming in to wholesalers. Can't account if LFSs are infecting the fishes. In my area, for every 50 fish I acquire from the wholesaler, I see none or one case of MV. It can and does spread quickly, however.

Would this approach better than simply a "use Cupramine" treatment as first attack?

I don't think so.

1. FW dip on way to quarantine tank
2. Look for signs of MV; MV present, do 3.
3. Do copper treatment
4. Hold in quarantine

The above process is simpler (less complex), less stressful on a new fish, infallible so long as the full quarantine process is 6 weeks on fish with no detectable MV, and 4 more weeks after treatment to verify the disease is cured on FW bath evidence.